Alec wrote:

Dryfit wrote:I rather see some new things like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzplPIrzjY . Windows 7 is just the same thing as before with a little change under the hood and some eye candy.

I hope linux will also think more on touch our multi touch in there roadmaps, it will be the future also web based applications will be.

Actually, X11R7.5 (the next release) is scheduled to to come with MPX support, which will enable these kinds of things to be done. In the mean time (before actually you get a screen like that) you'll be able to have a mouse pointer for each mouse you have plugged in. That's going to be so much fun!

Cool i need to connect my pc to my Plasma screen then, so my wife and me can do things together on one pc.

andre_orwell wrote:Please don't "loose" the systray or some functional equivalent!

Systray could be killed, but the functionality would still be there.

Almost all the content in the systray is dynamic (is updated to reflect the status of software running on the system) and active (you can interact with it directly to open a relevant application or access a relevant menu).

Most of the stuff in systray is useless. And it's not dynamic at all. Only notification I get from the systray is the notification that there are updates to my distro. And that could be handled by Knotify just fine.

It has Kwallet. I don't need to stare at t all the time. It has network-manager. Why do I need to stare at that all the time? Battery-monitor? Couldn't that be handled by a truly dynamic plasmoid instead?

The design of systray makes it way too easy dumbing-ground for all kinds of miscellaneous ****. If we used plasmoids instead, the bar would be a lot higher. With systray, it's way too easy to keep on piling icons there.

It is always visible so it provides information with the minimum of distraction from the current task.

95% of the information is completely useless. And most of the time the icons do not provide any information at all.

A systray alternative sounds like a good idea to me. Maybe somebody has a good idea to eliminate the taskbar as well. [size=x-small]One can only hope.[/size]

I don't like what I see on those Windows 7 screenshots. The visual style looks very dated, it looks dated in Windows Vista and the current Windows 7 style isn't all that different. For some reason Microsoft thinks it needs to apply transparency and gloss to every single UI aspect, just because their frameworks provide said functionality.

It misses a certain elegance and lightness which is hard to describe in words but is clearly visible in both the visual design of KDE 4 and Mac OS X.

Janne wrote:It has Kwallet. I don't need to stare at t all the time. It has network-manager. Why do I need to stare at that all the time? Battery-monitor? Couldn't that be handled by a truly dynamic plasmoid instead?

I really don't see how making it a plasmoid will help. The point of KWallet is that when it's open, you're aware of the fact that it is open. If you let someone use your computer and you don't want them to have access to every account you have, you right-click the walled and say "Quit." It then disappears (it also disappears after I lock the screen or not use it for several minutes).

Now, let's take another systray icon - the KTorrent. When I open KTorrent, an Icon appears in systray and shows little bars representing upload and download speeds, as well as detailed information on hover. If it was a plasmoid, what would happen if I quit KTorrent? KTorrent won't be running, but the useless plasmoid will remain for me to stare at. I haven't yet seen a plasmoid that appears and disappears depending on certain events (and I assume I won't see one anytime soon because how would you remove it if it's not visible?)

And did you say battery monitor? I don't think there is a battery monitor in system tray in KDE4. There is a big fat plasmoid that takes up twice the amount of space and doesn't show the amount of battery life as legibly the KDE 3 systray icon (which had a small square where, as the battery life dropped down, pixels would dissappear one-by-one).

Alec wrote:I really don't see how making it a plasmoid will help. The point of KWallet is that when it's open, you're aware of the fact that it is open. If you let someone use your computer and you don't want them to have access to every account you have, you right-click the walled and say "Quit." It then disappears (it also disappears after I lock the screen or not use it for several minutes).

Is it just me, or is that a really far-fetched example? I have never ran in to that issue in OS X (for example) even though it has similar functionality. Besides, we should use fast user switching for situation like you describe. What you just described promotes insecure computing.

Now, let's take another systray icon - the KTorrent. When I open KTorrent, an Icon appears in systray and shows little bars representing upload and download speeds, as well as detailed information on hover. If it was a plasmoid, what would happen if I quit KTorrent? KTorrent won't be running, but the useless plasmoid will remain for me to stare at. I haven't yet seen a plasmoid that appears and disappears depending on certain events (and I assume I won't see one anytime soon because how would you remove it if it's not visible?)

That functionality might not exist yet, but it should. The app could have related plasmoids attached to it, that provide useful functionality.

That said, it might be useful to consider a scheme similar to OS X, where closing the app-window does not close the app itself, it keeps on running in the background. Although I can understand that that might be a big change in how the system behaves. But it would make sense. You could just close the app-windows you do not need, but the apps would keep on running, and maybe providing you with information through Knotify/plasmoids.

And did you say battery monitor? I don't think there is a battery monitor in system tray in KDE4.

Yes there is. And it's in the systray _all_the_time_. It lets me know that I'm plugged in to the wall-socket (like I didn't know that already), and it lets me know that I'm running on battery (again, like I didn't know that already).

What should the battery-monitor tell me? It should tell me that how much power I have left in my battery, and how much longer it takes to charge the battery. To accomplish those tasks, we do not need a systray-icon that is visible all the time. What we should have instead is a plasmoid that is visible only when there's something important going on (that is, when the user is on battery-power and when he's charging the battery).

Janne wrote:That said, it might be useful to consider a scheme similar to OS X, where closing the app-window does not close the app itself, it keeps on running in the background. Although I can understand that that might be a big change in how the system behaves. But it would make sense. You could just close the app-windows you do not need, but the apps would keep on running, and maybe providing you with information through Knotify/plasmoids.

Apart from notifying the user through plasmoids/knotify, I don't think that would be a big change at all. A lot of programs already behave in that way. Ktorrent, Kget, Amarok, and Kontact to name just a few. Not all though, but those where the programmers decided that it makes sense to run all the time.

Would somebody please explain eaxtly *why* a plasmoid would be an improvement on a systray icon/whatever you call it? So far the only real reason I have heard cited is that it would be harder for developers to implement... I had to pinch myself... I can't really believe this is the intention of KDE developers - to make more work for application develpers!?! I am worried I might be in the wrong community after all

And for what it's worth Janne... I like to see if my laptop is running on battery or power, and if ktorrent, amarok etc are doing something, if there is a wireless network in my area, if there are updates available, grab stuff from klipper etc. I like to be able to multi-task without interrupting my "main task". And if I don't want to see the systray all the time I can make the bar auto-hide.

... bemused ...

I would *like* to think you are saying "there are other ways to think about providing application feedback and notifications that do not require part of the screen to be permanently stolen from applications". If you are I'd love to hear about your vision. Please give an example of how you see it working for you. But please don't just say use a plasmoid. I don't know enough about plasmoids to understand how they would provide the function any differently in practice.

The benefit of a plasmoid is that you can put it ANYWHERE and do whatever you want with it. A system tray, in the classical sense, should still exist for legacy purposes. However, it should be completely in the control of the user what shows up there (sometimes, programs make it next to impossible to remove their useless systray icon, so this should be manageable by the systray itself) Other than that, the systray would become a containment that would keep track of notification oriented plasmoids, as well as making them context sensitive. This would also solve the problem of removing an invisible plasmoid, as its visibility would be determined in the settings of another plasmoid (which, hopefully, would be straight forward and user friendly).

From what I've heard, the 4.2 systray will provide much, if not all, of this functionality. Seems like somebody already thought of it.

I do like the window tabbing (though this isn't original, it exists in a somewhat less useful and stable form in compiz) and am quite willing to experiement with textless tasks (the current KDE4.1 taskbar takes up way too much space, its just ridiculous)
I'm hoping that these options will come soon to KDE4. I'm not sure, however, if Microsoft chose the most user friendly way of doing this: cuz OS X certainly didn't (you lose your launchers when your programs are running) For this reason, I'm hoping that a lot of innovation is put into task management in KDE4 in the near future.

andre_orwell wrote:Would somebody please explain eaxtly *why* a plasmoid would be an improvement on a systray icon/whatever you call it? So far the only real reason I have heard cited is that it would be harder for developers to implement... I had to pinch myself... I can't really believe this is the intention of KDE developers - to make more work for application develpers!?!

OK, first things first: I'm not a KDE-developer. When I make a suggestion here, I'm in no way representing KDE-project, since I'm not assocoaited with it in any shape or form. I'm just an user.

Now that that has been taken care of.... What I meant by plasmoids being "harder" to use is.... Like I said, it's too easy to use the systray. By that I mean that we often have apps putting an icon in the systray when in reality there is no need for that icon. End-result is that systray becomes clutters and confusing. It consumes space from the taskbar and more icons you have in the systray, less useful systray becomes.

If we used plasmoids, that piling of icons becomes harder, since the desktop would become cluttered. So application-developers would have to really think that do they really need that icon. By making something "harder" to do, we could make the end-result _better_.

I am worried I might be in the wrong community after all

you are not. You don't have to worry about my suggestions, since I have no more power over the KDE-devels than you do . In a community as big as the KDE-community you will run in to different opinions. With some you will agree, with others you will disagree.

And for what it's worth Janne... I like to see if my laptop is running on battery or power

Why? I mean, you could check that by checking the LED on the laptop, checking if you are plugged in.... And if you are running on battery-power, you would get a plasmoid that tells you the status of the battery.

and if ktorrent, amarok etc are doing something

Knotify could handle that.

if there is a wireless network in my area

you don't need to have a icon in the systray for that. You might beed a list of networks when you are connecting to the network. You do not need that list all the time.

And I just got a wild idea.... Suppose you do need a list of networks.... What if you could launch Krunner, start typing "wifi" for example, and it would show you all nearby networks right there?

if there are updates available

Why do you need the systray for that? It seems to me that you are thinking that since we use Systray for all that stuff tuday, removing the systray would also remove that functionality. It wouldn't be. Systray would be removed, but the functionality would not.

Besides, why would we need a icon in the systray telling us about updates? Only time we need that kind of notification is when there are updates available. Rest of the time it's utterly useless, just wasting space in the systray. Knotify could let you know that "there are updates available", with zero need for systray-icon.

I would *like* to think you are saying "there are other ways to think about providing application feedback and notifications that do not require part of the screen to be permanently stolen from applications".

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying! I'm advocating for removal of systray. I'm NOT advocating for the removal of the functionality it provides.

If you are I'd love to hear about your vision. Please give an example of how you see it working for you. But please don't just say use a plasmoid. I don't know enough about plasmoids to understand how they would provide the function any differently in practice.

The difference plasmoids would provide are multiple:

a) they are bigger, so the icon itself could provide more information

b) Plasmoids are bigger, so you couldn't have lots of them. What does that mean? it means that app-developers would REALLY have to think that do they need that icon or not. Right now they don't have to think about that, so they keep on piling icons in the systray.

Now, the technology might not be there yet (I'm not sure), but I would like to see "dynamic plasmoids". That is, when you unplug your laptop from power, you would get a battery-plasmoid on your desktop, telling you the status of your battery. When you plug in power again, the plasmoid would remain on the desktop for as long as it takes to charge the battery. When you are plugged in with a full battery, I don't really see any need to diplay that fact to the user. Why should the user be constantly reminded that "you are plugged in to power.... you are still plugged in..... still plugged in.....". I think the user knows whether he's plugged in or not, without having an icon to tell him that fact.

In short: systray-icons should only display information that is actively needed. Right now it's not being used for that. It's used as a dumbing-ground for "stuff". If we used plasmoids instead, you couldn't really keep on piling them to the desktop, so the developers would have to use their judgement more.

On this XP-machine I'm typing this on, I have 13 icons in the systray. How many of those is actually providing me with information that I actually need? 1-2.

On this XP-machine I'm typing this on, I have 13 icons in the systray. How many of those is actually providing me with information that I actually need? 1-2.

Ok I underand your point.... but what you describe as ideal is what I already experience running gnome (icons only as required) and windows (having too many pointless icons).

Call it a systray or a plasmoid the point is that if something is going to steal screen space away from the main show then it should have a good reason to. I'm all for that. I just wouldn't headline it as "lets do away with the systray"

andre_orwell wrote:Call it a systray or a plasmoid the point is that if something is going to steal screen space away from the main show then it should have a good reason to. I'm all for that. I just wouldn't headline it as "lets do away with the systray"

Like I said, the problem with systray is that it's too easy to keep on piling icons in there. Using plasmoids, that piling becomes a lot harder. techincally it would probably be just as easy, but _socially_ it would be a lot harder, since users would start complaining if every single app insisted on having a plasmoid of it's own (like they seem to insist on having systray-icons right now, even if there's no real need for one). The blessing and the curse of the systray is that it's still relatively unobtrusive. So that means that people are not THAT annoyed by it. And it also means that it's easy for developers to keep adding icons to it, making it less and less useful.

This approach would force the developers to actually think what their app does and how it does it. Using the systray is the easy way out.

There are times I really enjoy the functionality that a systray provides.

1) Wifi, battery, email, update, et cetera... notifications
2) background running: getting rid of an application that I don't want cluttering my window manager, but leaving it running where I can quickly check on it.

Wait a minute: these are two completely different functions, and besides, most notification icons sit there doing nothing, taking up space until something happens.

the first would be better handled by a universal notification infrastructure... if only we had one of those...

the second is a problem inherent to the window manager. There should be a built in way to keep easy access to background applications, but keep them out of the workspace.

The systray is a kludge. Just like the (pre-plasma) desktop. Its a dumping ground for anything that is lacking in the rest of the interface, provided in an incoherent jumble of 'solutions' that are often superfluous, overkill, and difficult to manage.

Thats not to say it should be killed, but just redefined. If I want to run apps in an easy-to-find, but out-of-the-way place, there should be feature for this built into my window manager/desktop UI. Notifications should be handled in a dynamic way with a consistent form. And any malleable desktop notification system would, in KDE4, be implemented involving plasmoids, being as the systray in KDE4 already IS a plasmoid.

Janne wrote:And it seems that Microsoft is also fed up with the systray . The quicker KDE figures out to eliminate that travesty, the happier we will be.

There are a gazillion apps that use a systray icon, and KDE does not own them all. So there will still be a need to deal with them for a while. But beyond that, there will always be a need for tiny status icons that you can click on. From the users perspective, the battery applet is just a systray applet with a dedicated plasmoid.

jrick wrote:

RobinHood wrote:Who bought Trolltech? Now is QT Software. It is a little scary for future of KDE and Unix world.

If a company ever makes Qt closed source, it will automatically fall back to a BSD-like license (yay!), so there's really nothing to worry about with Qt being owned by Nokia.

If you don't like the idea of a company owning the toolkit made to use KDE, go switch to GTK. Personally, I still can't realize why people would want to use GTK solely based on this whole company thing; Qt is so much nicer to code with (based on what I hear... I don't program with either).

Yeah the only problem is that kde would then have to maintain it's own qt, and that qt wouldn't necessarily be compatible with the "other" qt. But it doesn't seem likely that will happen. I think that kde and qt benefit from each other mutually. It's a mistake to think that kde is just leeching of qt and that we should all be terrified of kde being found out and Nokia ripping kde off of qt and leaving us out in the dark. It's just FUD.

As for qt being much nicer to code with, it absolutely is.

But enough about that, this is totally off topic. Also, the systray stuff is very interesting indeed and I think it deserves it's own thread. This thread is all about Windows 7, I think we should try and stick to that and hopefully we continue to discuss the issues with systray. I think it's healthy to question standards periodically.

As for Windows 7, wow...I am totally disappointed by Microsoft. Usually things like this are spun much better. I like looking at other DE's and software it's very interesting. On that note usually Microsoft gets me to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am usually surprised by their ability to make things look professional (even when in the end the application actually falls far from my expectations). I am having a hard time seeing how most of these changes are actually useful to the average person. I mean honestly? I don't want to get into the discussion of "whose grandmother " is actually going to understand the "jump bar" since we are getting to the point where people are born into a computer dominated world and we have to look forward. But who will be taking the time to make use of most of these features? There are a ton of features like this (not exactly, but along the same line of thinking) in current Windows edition, and a few power users couldn't live without some of those features, but the average person isn't going to want to read a manual before they user their computer to check the mail. If I hadn't read that article and I minimized my window only to find it not on the old task-bar, I'd throw a fit about how my applications were crashing left right an center.

Don't get me wrong. On the whole some of these features could prove useful, and may not be that bad. But there doesn't seem to be any direction behind them, and it seems like they are changing things for the sake of making them different, instead of making them better. It's still early but this is what I am feeling.

The flip-side of this is what kde4 did to Desktop icons (namely forcing them into folder views). That was a MAJOR change from the standard. But you know what it did? It gave us the ability to not only display the "desktop folder" on our desktop, but any folder we wanted. And with activities we can now have several different setups for each project we are working on, with folder-view plasmoids that are relevant to that task. There was a direction there and it fit with the rest of kde4 theme. To integrate the desktop and the applications more closely and to allow the user to shape them to their needs (nepomunk & akonadi etc.) , to connect the desktop to the Internet and make use of web2.0 advancements (plasmoids, nepomunk & strigi etc.).

The features listed in this preview are just like, "Oh we thought it'd be cool to remove the text from the task-bar so we did that, then we added "libraries" to explorer and that was kinda cool, and then we unleashed the widgets from the side pane (which I thought was possible on vista by the way, no?)"


Finally I wanted to elaborate on something that was mentioned earlier here, I think the kickoff menu needs to be re-thought. I'm not sure it's as efficient as it could be. However it should in no-way be as cluttered as the windows menus are now.

Brandybuck wrote:

Janne wrote:And it seems that Microsoft is also fed up with the systray . The quicker KDE figures out to eliminate that travesty, the happier we will be.

There are a gazillion apps that use a systray icon, and KDE does not own them all. So there will still be a need to deal with them for a while. But beyond that, there will always be a need for tiny status icons that you can click on. From the users perspective, the battery applet is just a systray applet with a dedicated plasmoid.

When I say that systrya should be eliminated, I'm talking about the actual sustray, and not the functionality it provides. Legacy-apps could still be handled, they could just be handled in some other way that by piling icons in the panel.