Brandybuck wrote:
Ever use an MDI and accidentally do something to the wrong document? I get exactly the same problem on the Mac with regards to apps. I frequently end up using the wrong app's menubar.

Maybe it's just you . The menubar does tell what app controls it (the name of the first menu. Off-topic but I think that KDE should use similar scheme. I believe Amarok already does). And of course the app-windows themselves tell the user which of them is active.

It's nice that the Mac forces some conformity on the menus, but putting them on a different part of the display from the applications is bad.

This underlines an additional difference Macs have when compared to most other systems. The windows in the desktop are actually not the application. they are merely application-windows. There is a difference between the two. And in many ways, the separate menubar reinforced that separation. If you close an app-window, you can see in the menubar that the app keeps on running.

Is the ease of not missing the top edge of the screen so much more valuable than having the menu always right next to your mouse? I don't think so.

Distance does not matter, what matters is speed. And how do you know that the menubar in the window is "always right next to the mouse"?

I won't argue with Mac OSX True Believers. My point is not to dispute with His Holyness Saint Steve, but to point out to KDE users that design decisions for the Mac desktop (made twenty five years ago for a 5" screen) might not be the best default for the KDE desktop.

I agree with what some others have said: it is a good option to have. Just don't make it the default.

Brandybuck wrote:I won't argue with Mac OSX True Believers. My point is not to dispute with His Holyness Saint Steve

I admit it: I use OS X. But I'm not an foaming-at-the-mouth Mac-fanboy. If I were, I wouldn't be here. But just because I think that OS X has some features that would benefit KDE does not mean that I'm some sort of Mac-fanatic.

but to point out to KDE users that design decisions for the Mac desktop (made twenty five years ago for a 5" screen) might not be the best default for the KDE desktop.

I present you.... Windows 1.x: http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xcompu ... enshot.png

Why is that the good default for KDE? Why are design-decisions made for Windows 1.0 good defaults for KDE?

The argument that "the universal menubar is 25 years old!" does not fly. Per-window menubar is about as old, so it isn't latest and greatest innovation either.

And that universal menubar seems to be working on even 30" monitors.

Janne wrote:I present you.... Windows 1.x: http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xcompu ... enshot.png

Why is that the good default for KDE? Why are design-decisions made for Windows 1.0 good defaults for KDE?

I personally think the colors in that screenshot should be KDE 4.2's defaults...:-P

KDE 4.1 looks NOTHING like Windows 1.0! I'm puzzled you would make the comparison. Only one desktop has had a mandatory universal menubar, every other desktop ever has had per-application menubars (except those that had no menubars at all). So why compare to Windows when you could compare to OS/2, BeOS, NeXT, CDE, GEOS, etc, etc.

If you want a universal menubar, go for it. Write one yourself or persuade someone to write one for you. But don't try to make it my default. That's my whole point: don't make it the default.

p.s. While you're at it, see if you can get a universal toolbar too. Mac doesn't have it, but if it's good enough for the menubar it should be good for the toolbar.

Brandybuck wrote:KDE 4.1 looks NOTHING like Windows 1.0! I'm puzzled you would make the comparison.

And KDE4 looks nothing like MacOS, so why are you railing against this feature by saying it's a "25 year old design-decision for MacOS"?

My point was that arguing against the universal menubar because it's "old" does not fly since the per-window menubars are just as old. Arguing against them because it's a "design-decision for MacOS" does not fly because I could just as well say that per-app menubars are a Windows design-decision. Why would Windows design-decisions be better than MacOS design-decisions?

So the comment that "but to point out to KDE users that design decisions for the Mac desktop (made twenty five years ago for a 5" screen) might not be the best default for the KDE desktop." doesn't really make any sense, since you don't actually say why that feature is not in KDE's "best interest", since the exact same argument could be used in arguing against per-app menubars.

If you want to argue against such a menubar, use proper arguments, instead of complaining that it's "old".

Only one desktop has had a mandatory universal menubar, every other desktop ever has had per-application menubars (except those that had no menubars at all). So why compare to Windows when you could compare to OS/2, BeOS, NeXT, CDE, GEOS, etc, etc.

Because you complained that the universal menubar is "old", when in fact the per-app menubar is just as old, if not older. You also complained that it's "for MacOS", but I could just as well say that per-app menubars are "for Windows".

If you want a universal menubar, go for it. Write one yourself or persuade someone to write one for you. But don't try to make it my default.

Why shouldn't I try to make it the default? I would understand if I were in a position of power, but you are now saying that I shouldn't even TRY to make it default? Are you saying that some things are taboos and verboten that they shouldn't even be discussed?

It seems to me that you are overtly negative towards anything that reminds you of Apple. You are very hostile towards this particular feature and you talk of "true believers" and "His holiness Saint Steve". Are those really called for? And like it or not, OS X IS a valid OS with lots of interesting ideas in it.

Seriously: just relax. There are other OS'es out there than just Windows.

p.s. While you're at it, see if you can get a universal toolbar too. Mac doesn't have it, but if it's good enough for the menubar it should be good for the toolbar.

That feature makes no sense whatsoever.

[quote='Janne' pid='18645' dateline='1227121127']If you want to argue against such a menubar, use proper arguments, instead of complaining that it's "old"./quote]

That was just one of several arguments I put forth. But in true internet fashion you fixated on one. And the oldness argument wasn't even about the oldness but about the tiny size of the monitor.

Let me repeat for the third time: do whatever the frak you want on your own desktop, just leave mine alone.

Please try to make meaningful and calm discussion, remembering the KDE Code Of Conduct

You may feel free to continue discussing this thread, but please do it with respect for others, or I will have to close this thread.

Brandybuck wrote:That was just one of several arguments I put forth. But in true internet fashion you fixated on one.

I did talk about your other arguments in my previous comments, but in the message I was replying to, the "oldness" was the only argument you made

And the oldness argument wasn't even about the oldness but about the tiny size of the monitor.

You specificly mentioned that it was made 25 years ago. That said, it's being used in modern monitors and it seems to be working fine.

Let me repeat for the third time: do whatever the frak you want on your own desktop, just leave mine alone.

There really is no reason for hostility, so I would like to suggest that you calm down. No-one is going to force you to use such a menubar. Even if it were a default (which I don't see it being) you could still change the defaults as much as you want.

We should be able to discuss features and systems that some people do not like. And I understand that the universal menubar is such a feature. It's not universally bad, it has it's pros and cons.

What I would like to see is new approaches to the universal menubar. We have already seen some new ideas (menubar that follows the mouse in multihead-configurations), but I would like to see more .

Janne wrote:We should be able to discuss features and systems that some people do not like. And I understand that the universal menubar is such a feature. It's not universally bad, it has it's pros and cons.

Yes, we should be able to do that. That's how I started off my side of the conversation, by presenting a contrary view. But you seem to forget how you started off the converstation:

I believe that KDE4 should use the universal menubar (when it becomes available) by default.

You are arguing for the default here. Not for a universal menubar that you can turn on, but for universal menubar that everyone else has to figure out how to turn off. We had the option for a universal menubar in KDE3.x, and most people did not use it. I've seen hundreds of KDE3 desktops in the past few years, and so far I saw only *one* person who used the universal menubar.

Brandybuck wrote:
But you seem to forget how you started off the converstation:

No, I'm not forgetting that. Just because I'm arguing for having such a default is not a good enough reason to be rude.

You are arguing for the default here.

Is that good enough reason for rudeness and hostility?

Not for a universal menubar that you can turn on, but for universal menubar that everyone else has to figure out how to turn off.

people already do different things to their desktops, and we encourage them to do so. And no, "everyone" would not have to figure out how to turn it off. I would say that people would understand the system very fast, and most would keep on using it.

We had the option for a universal menubar in KDE3.x, and most people did not use it. I've seen hundreds of KDE3 desktops in the past few years, and so far I saw only *one* person who used the universal menubar.

I would say that's because most people don't know anything about the feature. They know Windows, and the idea for them to choose something else is alien. And usually people stick with the defaults. They might change the background, but that's about it.

That said, many of them are moving to MacOS, and they don't seem to have problems using such a menubar there.

My brother uses a a mac and i simply think its bad over simplistic and make it look different is to difficult, and the menubar i don't think its user friendly to much moving with my mouse where in kde i can do it with less moving.but i'm lazy

Dryfit wrote:My brother uses a a mac and i simply think its bad over simplistic and make it look different is to difficult

The thing with Macs is that they look simple (which is good), but they still let the users do all the tasks they need to get done.

and the menubar i don't think its user friendly to much moving with my mouse where in kde i can do it with less moving.but i'm lazy

The thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter what distance you need to travel, but how fast you can travel it. Per-app menubars are usually closer to the cursor than universal menubar is, but accessing the universal menubar is faster, since it's in a screen-corner. So you can "throw" the cursor to the menu with a quick flick of your wrist, as opposed to having to carefully position the cursor at the menu (like you have to with a per-app menubar).

Janne wrote:

Dryfit wrote:My brother uses a a mac and i simply think its bad over simplistic and make it look different is to difficult

The thing with Macs is that they look simple (which is good), but they still let the users do all the tasks they need to get done.

and the menubar i don't think its user friendly to much moving with my mouse where in kde i can do it with less moving.but i'm lazy

The thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter what distance you need to travel, but how fast you can travel it. Per-app menubars are usually closer to the cursor than universal menubar is, but accessing the universal menubar is faster, since it's in a screen-corner. So you can "throw" the cursor to the menu with a quick flick of your wrist, as opposed to having to carefully position the cursor at the menu (like you have to with a per-app menubar).

Think a menubar is also taking to much space, they way chrome and IE7 do it takes less space because you don't use it much.
And users can do on all GUI OS's there tasks if the basic is just set for them, doesn't matter what i have running xp,vista,kde,gnome our xfce all people that are trying my computer find there way if the basic applications they need are installed with a good description.

Janne wrote:Is that good enough reason for rudeness and hostility?

I did not mean to be rude. But over the internet everyone assumes the worst in others. Don't read more into my posts than there is.