Dryfit wrote:Make a list what your missing in KDE4 and what are your suggestions to solve that.

In particular, I'd be interested in a long list of things in Konqueror (file manager) portion that are missing in KDE4 from KDE3, especially from a power-user's perspective

GeneralZod wrote:

Dryfit wrote:Make a list what your missing in KDE4 and what are your suggestions to solve that.

In particular, I'd be interested in a long list of things in Konqueror (file manager) portion that are missing in KDE4 from KDE3, especially from a power-user's perspective

For me that is the servicemenu's but that also counts for dolphin and solved that with http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KD ... tent=80131

blackbelt_jones wrote:This could turn out to be a problem with free software, and I hope that this can be taken constructively. Free software is developer driven, which sometimes makes mere users feel like second-class citizens.

Actually this is not related to the software being available unter a Free Software licence.

The issue is using community provided distributions, since their packagers are volunteers and might decide to spend more time (or all if it) on a certain version of a product.

Of course such decisions will be influenced by user feedback just like Free Software development is also unfluenced, but since this is a volunteer's contribution it ultimately is their decision.

Company provided software distributions, such as "enterprise" Linux distributions, Microsoft Windows or Apple Mac OS X, have contracts between customer and provider, allowing the provider to spend resources on whatever version of a product a large quantity of customers are willing to pay for.

An additional option for software distributed as Free Software is that even local service providers can try to attract and hold a veritable customer base by deciding to support a specific version nobody else is.

For example most of the companies selling Free Software services to German authorities will most of the time even provide feature development on "old" version as part of the contract or as an additional contract option.

My assumption is that this kind of continued support of established version is what KDE developers are referring to when they say that KDE3 will be around as long as there is need for it.
The sources are not going to be removed from the repository, fixes can still be committed and thus shared between entities providing long term support.

Cheers,
_

Dryfit wrote:

GeneralZod wrote:

Dryfit wrote:Make a list what your missing in KDE4 and what are your suggestions to solve that.

In particular, I'd be interested in a long list of things in Konqueror (file manager) portion that are missing in KDE4 from KDE3, especially from a power-user's perspective

For me that is the servicemenu's but that also counts for dolphin and solved that with http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KD ... tent=80131

There are two big things that are missing from Konqueror

1. The filter bar as it exists in Konqueror 3. That's the window where you type in an expression, and files and directories whose names are not included in the expression are removed from the display. For some readon Konq 4 has a filter bar that only filters out files according to extension type.

2. The storage media window, which can be used to mount removable media.

That's the biggest problems I have with Konqueror 4, in fact the only ones I can think of offhand. Thanks for asking.

Really, when I look at these things, it's not too much to hope that they can be fixed, and if that happens, I'll be happy as a clam with KDE4.:lightbulb:

So I think there's really no reason for me to be discouraged just yet. I don't even have to switch distros. I can go back to hardy, or maybe stick with Insipid uh... Intrepid and keep testing Konqueror 4 to help resolve these problems. :thumbs_up:

Thank you for your patience, and help, and thanks for listening.:thumbs_up:[hr]

anda_skoa wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:This could turn out to be a problem with free software, and I hope that this can be taken constructively. Free software is developer driven, which sometimes makes mere users feel like second-class citizens.

Actually this is not related to the software being available unter a Free Software licence.

The issue is using community provided distributions, since their packagers are volunteers and might decide to spend more time (or all if it) on a certain version of a product.

Of course such decisions will be influenced by user feedback just like Free Software development is also unfluenced, but since this is a volunteer's contribution it ultimately is their decision.

Company provided software distributions, such as "enterprise" Linux distributions, Microsoft Windows or Apple Mac OS X, have contracts between customer and provider, allowing the provider to spend resources on whatever version of a product a large quantity of customers are willing to pay for.

An additional option for software distributed as Free Software is that even local service providers can try to attract and hold a veritable customer base by deciding to support a specific version nobody else is.

For example most of the companies selling Free Software services to German authorities will most of the time even provide feature development on "old" version as part of the contract or as an additional contract option.

My assumption is that this kind of continued support of established version is what KDE developers are referring to when they say that KDE3 will be around as long as there is need for it.
The sources are not going to be removed from the repository, fixes can still be committed and thus shared between entities providing long term support.

Cheers,
_

The answer is better communication on both sides. I think this whole episode is an example of that, of how it can be better.

blackbelt_jones wrote:There are two big things that are missing from Konqueror

1. The filter bar as it exists in Konqueror 3. That's the window where you type in an expression, and files and directories whose names are not included in the expression are removed from the display. For some readon Konq 4 has a filter bar that only filters out files according to extension type.

This thing?

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kdirfilterplugin-konq4.png

Yeah, this was completely broken in SVN, but I (mostly) fixed it a while back (the screenshot is Konqueror4 running under KDE3, in case it's not clear) :

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168254

Works very well - in fact, I can't even remember what the remaining 10% was

2. The storage media window, which can be used to mount removable media.

Can you give me a screenshot of this? I don't recall an actual window in Konqueror that allowed one to mount/ unmount media.

That's the biggest problems I have with Konqueror 4, in fact the only ones I can think of offhand. Thanks for asking.

No problem; thanks for the specifics If you have any more, please do keep them coming. Even minor regressions from KDE3 times interest me.

I'm planning to blog at some point in the future about some of the stuff we're doing with Dolphin/ Konqueror to bring it back up to KDE3 levels (and hopefully, ultimately, beyond) - I'm on planetkde, blog is in signature. This is a way off, though, as there are still quite a few patches pending review

GeneralZod wrote:
This thing?

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kdirfilterplugin-konq4.png

Yeah, this was completely broken in SVN, but I (mostly) fixed it a while back (the screenshot is Konqueror4 running under KDE3, in case it's not clear) :

Will that be available in Dolphin as well?

Kryten2X4B wrote:

GeneralZod wrote:
This thing?

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kdirfilterplugin-konq4.png

Yeah, this was completely broken in SVN, but I (mostly) fixed it a while back (the screenshot is Konqueror4 running under KDE3, in case it's not clear) :

Will that be available in Dolphin as well?

This particular implementation won't as it's a Konqueror plugin. Dolphin has it's own "filter-bar" (CTRL+I) but this does not allow filtering by MIME types.

GeneralZod wrote:In particular, I'd be interested in a long list of things in Konqueror (file manager) portion that are missing in KDE4 from KDE3, especially from a power-user's perspective

Mmm, I yesterday found out I dearly missed the option of a 'file size view'. It is something you use only once in a while, but then you are really grateful it is there. I had some very big files someplace clogging up my home folder, and now I had to track 'em down manually....

Secondly: I had the possibility in the Konqueror sidebar to give all my volumes a name. Now they just show up as 'Volume Ext3', without even the volume size.

Are these things on the list for 4.2 (either in Konqueror or Doplhin)??

XiniX wrote:Mmm, I yesterday found out I dearly missed the option of a 'file size view'. It is something you use only once in a while, but then you are really grateful it is there. I had some very big files someplace clogging up my home folder, and now I had to track 'em down manually....

File size view has been around since 4.0, I think, but is rarely installed by distros by default. Consult your distro for more info It's Konqueror-only, though, for the foreseeable future - Dolphin does not have pluggable File Views.

Secondly: I had the possibility in the Konqueror sidebar to give all my volumes a name. Now they just show up as 'Volume Ext3', without even the volume size.

Can you post screenshots of this in KDE3 vs KDE4 for comparison?

ther is a 3party repo for intrepid whit kde3.5.10

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/
and it adds a 7 before the version number so its always the highest kde version be default.

blackbelt_jones wrote:

jrick wrote:Don't use Kubuntu?

Well, duh.

But I was told that we'd get support for KDE as long as people chose to use it, and that seemed reasonable to me, democratic and all, but whoops, only one lever on that voting machine.

KDE-folks said that they swill keep on supporting KDE3. Kubuntu-folks decided to move to KDE4. You can't blame KDE-folks for decision Kubuntu made. You should go whine to the Kubuntu-devels, KDE-devels had nothing to do with their decision.

of_darkness wrote:ther is a 3party repo for intrepid whit kde3.5.10

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/
and it adds a 7 before the version number so its always the highest kde version be default.

YEAH ! :thumbs_up: I just set that up today! I got my KDE 3.5.10 and I got my Insipid Ibex, and I got em together.

This was my first look at KDE 3.5.10, and I was surprised to find... NEW FEATURES! THAT I REALLY REALLY LIKE!

When a distro wants to drop KDE 3, Unofficial repos are the way to go. For effectiveness, it sure beats trolling their forums!

Hey, of_darkness, I think I may have sent you a message about this. Through the Ubuntu forums, based on an old post of yours. Unless it was another of_darkness?[hr]

Janne wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:

jrick wrote:Don't use Kubuntu?

Well, duh.

But I was told that we'd get support for KDE as long as people chose to use it, and that seemed reasonable to me, democratic and all, but whoops, only one lever on that voting machine.

KDE-folks said that they swill keep on supporting KDE3. Kubuntu-folks decided to move to KDE4. You can't blame KDE-folks for decision Kubuntu made. You should go whine to the Kubuntu-devels, KDE-devels had nothing to do with their decision.

Like that'll help anything! Anyway, I'm fine now. You probably know that.

One of the reasons why I got so mad was at the attitude everyone at Kubuntu seems to have taken about KDE3. Everything I found in Kubuntu about KDE3 reads the same. It was like a cathecism. If you want to use KDE3, go to Hardy, you cannot run KDE3 in intrepid, there is no way, it is not possible.

No one said "Maybe someone will create an unofficial repository." or "Well, you can always compile it yourself."

There was even something in the Kubuntu Wiki about the prospects for future KDE3 support that was innaccurate in my view, based in what I've read here and on Aaron's blog. Speculation or misinformation, it was very weird.

I got mad because I believed it, but now I'm running KDE3 in Intrepid, and I love it. Moral of the story. Don't believe anyone, even the distro team, when they tell you you can't do something with Linux. Don't be angry, be amused!:shade:

blackbelt_jones wrote: you cannot run KDE3 in intrepid, there is no way, it is not possible.

Who actually said that? If you want official kde3 packages and want to run Kubuntu, then you have to run Hardy if you don't want to do some of the work on your own.

No one said "Maybe someone will create an unofficial repository." or "Well, you can always compile it yourself."

I myself suggested both of these somewhere out there, on another forum, and probably on a mailing list. No one did. a PPA would be a good place for this, not the external repo that completely wipes out KDE4. With a ppa, a group can work on it instead of just one person. but no one stepped up to do so. No one from any of the lists or forums I frequent have attempted to get together to at least see what they need to do. The fact that someone did produce some packages proves that it is possible, and that it is simply a time, manpower and desire issue.

this all boils down to one thing: how much is a particular distro obligated to provide a particular thing? If we had to supply everything to everyone we would still be doing the old-school distro habit of installing 7 gui text editors, 6 cli ones, 5 web browsers, and of course 4 kitchen sinks and 3 tetris clones, and still running KDE2.

claydoh wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote: you cannot run KDE3 in intrepid, there is no way, it is not possible.

Who actually said that? If you want official kde3 packages and want to run Kubuntu, then you have to run Hardy if you don't want to do some of the work on your own.

No one said "Maybe someone will create an unofficial repository." or "Well, you can always compile it yourself."

I myself suggested both of these somewhere out there, on another forum, and probably on a mailing list. No one did. a PPA would be a good place for this, not the external repo that completely wipes out KDE4. With a ppa, a group can work on it instead of just one person. but no one stepped up to do so. No one from any of the lists or forums I frequent have attempted to get together to at least see what they need to do. The fact that someone did produce some packages proves that it is possible, and that it is simply a time, manpower and desire issue.

this all boils down to one thing: how much is a particular distro obligated to provide a particular thing? If we had to supply everything to everyone we would still be doing the old-school distro habit of installing 7 gui text editors, 6 cli ones, 5 web browsers, and of course 4 kitchen sinks and 3 tetris clones, and still running KDE2.

There is no obligation, and there's no point in me evaluating the decision. You have nothing to justify. As far as I'm concerned, this whole thing worked out fine. I asked neverendingo to put the "solved" over the title of the thread, because I worked my way to a new understanding, with the help of a lot of people in here, who I believe I thanked.

However, I'm not going to justify that this was initially a horrible surprise for me, and everything I found about this in a Google search was pretty much the way I described it. Maybe that's bad luck. There was also some misiniformation in the Kubuntu wiki that freaked me out completely. It has since been corrected, so I don't want to rehash it.

I don't know what a PPA is, but I'm very content with the repositories. I really don't see what the problem with that is. You don't seem to like it for some reason... but the lack of obligation goes both ways, right? I would recommend that anyone who uses that repository might want to start with an Ubuntu install, instead of Kubuntu install. If a PPA is a better long term solution, it'll probably work itself out.

What I do want to say to everybody is this. Everything I believe about the future of KDE3 comes from this article.
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

KDE3 is a current and maintained desktop environment, and it will probably be maintained for years to come. It has an enormous user base. There's anecdotal evidence that, at least for the moment, KDE3 users slightly outnumber KDE4 users. So I was kind of surprised when it was dropped, but I'm fine now.

I'm not one of those "KDE4 sucks" guys. I probably sound like one when I feel threatened. I have very specific reasons why I can foresee wanting to switch to KDE 4 one day, when it's mature. The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's a really important project, maybe the most important thing happening right now, and I want to get behind it completely, and all I need for that is my bugfixes, my security upates and my kde3 repositories, so I can choose the moment. For a moment, I thought those things could be taken away from me, but now I see that they can't. So I think we're fine.

I think that so much of this hostility between KDE3 and KDE4 users could be avoided. People lash out against KDE4 because they think KDE3 is threatened. It isn't, not really.. If people could just let the KDE 3 users have their KDE3, you'd be getting so much less static. People lash out against KDE4 because they feel pushed into something.

But you're not going to get any more static from me, because I know now that I can't be pushed. And that means that I can lend my full support to the important work that is being done. Tonight, I intend to install a KDE4 Kubuntu Interepid system in a dual boot with my KDE3 system. Before I finally get thrown out of here, I hope to write something where I explain to you all how it is that, in my opinion, KDE4 is building toward something really important and necessary. No, it's not eye candy. It's brain food.