claydoh wrote:this all boils down to one thing: how much is a particular distro obligated to provide a particular thing? If we had to supply everything to everyone we would still be doing the old-school distro habit of installing 7 gui text editors, 6 cli ones, 5 web browsers, and of course 4 kitchen sinks and 3 tetris clones, and still running KDE2.

That's entirely a question of how much they want a user base, and how much providing whatever it is affects that. If the Kubuntu folks want people using Kubuntu, and people want KDE 3, then I'd say they need to provide it. If people don't want KDE3, or the Kubuntu devs are happy losing those users who do, then they don't have an obligation, do they?

It's like asking if a Vegan chef is obligated to cook meat. Depends on his customers and how much he likes having a job.

Based on what I hear about KDE 4.2, I'd say it might have been better to wait one more release to drop KDE 3.x and take users from 3.5.10 => 4.2, but what's done is done, and that argument could go on for eternity no doubt. For me, it just means my wife's computer will have to miss out on Intrepid.

admoore wrote:

claydoh wrote:this all boils down to one thing: how much is a particular distro obligated to provide a particular thing? If we had to supply everything to everyone we would still be doing the old-school distro habit of installing 7 gui text editors, 6 cli ones, 5 web browsers, and of course 4 kitchen sinks and 3 tetris clones, and still running KDE2.

That's entirely a question of how much they want a user base, and how much providing whatever it is affects that. If the Kubuntu folks want people using Kubuntu, and people want KDE 3, then I'd say they need to provide it. If people don't want KDE3, or the Kubuntu devs are happy losing those users who do, then they don't have an obligation, do they?

It's like asking if a Vegan chef is obligated to cook meat. Depends on his customers and how much he likes having a job.

Based on what I hear about KDE 4.2, I'd say it might have been better to wait one more release to drop KDE 3.x and take users from 3.5.10 => 4.2, but what's done is done, and that argument could go on for eternity no doubt. For me, it just means my wife's computer will have to miss out on Intrepid.

Once again, let me remind you, I'm running KDE 3 on Intrepid, so anything is possible.

I don't agree with the decision, but what turned me into an internet rage monster was reading on the Kubuntu wiki that there probably wouldn't be any more KDE3 releases. In that moment, and for a while afterward, it felt as if Kubuntu had decided to kill KDE3, and was poisoning the well with misinformation.

Now that I've calmed down, I think that's obviously pretty silly. The fact is that this particular urban legend is everywhere, and it's really doing the community a lot of damage. The anti-KDE4 sentiment hasn't really abated. On the dot, there's a huge anti-KDE4 thread from last week. Next time some one angrily tells you that they hate KDE4, consider that what they're really telling you is that they love KDE3, and they think that it's going to be taken away. In the case of Kubuntu, this belief may have turned into a self-fullfilling prophecy. Remember when Sarah Palin said she read "all the newspapers"? Think of that the next time you hear that "all the distros" are about to drop KDE 3.

The truth is that KDE3, like Linux itself, cannot be destroyed by a central decision from above. KDE3 will be around as long as people use it, and so if you want to keep it around all you have to do is use it. There's not going to be a lot of new development, but, Dear God, what do you want? If you don't like KDE4 because it's different, and you don't like KDE3 because it's the same, you may want to consider being a little less demanding.

Again, I think the answers are in this article by Aaron Seigo.. Everybody ought to read it, and calm the hell down.

Hey, I just had a great idea. How does the name "Tresbuntu" :lightbulb: sound? (The "s" is silent.);-)

Ok, thanks for the kind words, blackbelt_jones, i think that sums up (at least this thread) very well.
The main message:
KDE3 is still alive (if KDE4 is not for you)

Agreed everybody?

neverendingo wrote:Ok, thanks for the kind words, blackbelt_jones, i think that sums up (at least this thread) very well.
The main message:
KDE3 is still alive (if KDE4 is not for you)

Agreed everybody?

I would only add one thing, and that is, for heaven's sake, let's get the word out! This urban legend is creating a lot of unnecessary conflict. Read Aaron's article, bookmark it, and send it around.

When I finally understood that I didn't have to worry about KDE 3, I was able to see KDE4 in a more rational light. Whether you ever decide that you want to make KDE4 your desktop, it's just not fair to expect the KDE team to waste their talents and vision going over the same project until the end of time. For one thing, they'd probably ruin KDE3 with overdevelopment. I can see where KDE4 could be something really important and necessary one day, (and, let's not forget, lots of people love it as is) but it could be a spectacular failure and still lead to amazing software down the line. In fact, I don't like using it at all, but I could probably `list five or ten really great ideas that I have encountered in KDE4.

I think KDE3 is pretty close to the highest possible expression of the desktop paradigm as it existed for the past quarter century. It's not perfect, but for something that actually exists, it's pretty close. So, of course, you don't want to throw it away... however, there comes a point where creative people have to break the mold, start something ambitious that maybe at first doesn't work very well, and start building toward a new kind of greatness. Speaking as someone who really hates using it, KDE 4 is exactly the right project for the KDE team right now. And since KDE 3 will continue to be supported as long as people use it, there is no reason not to support this important project. But really, I think it's necessary to get the word out.

GeneralZod wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:There are two big things that are missing from Konqueror

1. The filter bar as it exists in Konqueror 3. That's the window where you type in an expression, and files and directories whose names are not included in the expression are removed from the display. For some readon Konq 4 has a filter bar that only filters out files according to extension type.

This thing?

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kdirfilterplugin-konq4.png

Yeah, this was completely broken in SVN, but I (mostly) fixed it a while back (the screenshot is Konqueror4 running under KDE3, in case it's not clear) :

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168254

Works very well - in fact, I can't even remember what the remaining 10% was

2. The storage media window, which can be used to mount removable media.

Can you give me a screenshot of this? I don't recall an actual window in Konqueror that allowed one to mount/ unmount media.

That's the biggest problems I have with Konqueror 4, in fact the only ones I can think of offhand. Thanks for asking.

No problem; thanks for the specifics If you have any more, please do keep them coming. Even minor regressions from KDE3 times interest me.

I'm planning to blog at some point in the future about some of the stuff we're doing with Dolphin/ Konqueror to bring it back up to KDE3 levels (and hopefully, ultimately, beyond) - I'm on planetkde, blog is in signature. This is a way off, though, as there are still quite a few patches pending review

That's awesome. I fell in love with Konqueror when I started to think of it as KDE in one application. Just about anything that can be done by a desktop environment can be done in Konqueror... love those nice simple application menus! This means that Konqueror can turn any window manager into a full featured desktop environment. Run Konqueror in fluxbox, edit your menus to take advantage of Konqueror's capabilities, and you know what it feels like to be a "Power User".

Until very recently, I didn't understand the realities at work here. Dolphin is the default file manager now, and that means that improvements to Konqueror will take longer. That's all right. Now that I get that, I'm fine with that. When I didn't get that, and Konqueror didn't have a filter bar, and Dolphin did, my thinking started to turn conspiratorial.

The more I understand the process at work, the more I feel that KDE is doing everything perfectly-- except for the public relations, which are a nightmare. I say this with the greatest respect to everyone involved, but I am by no means convinced that the Kubuntu team really understands what the KDE team is up to. And that's not to pick on the kubuntu team in particular, because I have been running around like a maniac because I wasn't getting it either. It's a sad state of affairs, since the reality is that having created a great desktop, a real classic that everyone can use for as long as they like, the KDE team is hard at work creating the next great desktop, which anyone can take up any time they like.

It's all good! In fact, it's all really good!

GeneralZod wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:
2. The storage media window, which can be used to mount removable media.

Can you give me a screenshot of this? I don't recall an actual window in Konqueror that allowed one to mount/ unmount media.

Sure. Remember this?




I think has turned into a really really productive thread, and I feel great about that.

blackbelt_jones wrote:Sure. Remember this?




I think has turned into a really really productive thread, and I feel great about that.

Ah, the media:/ kio_slave. This was actually removed (by its creator) a while back, though he seemed to be ambivalent about it. I'm not sure what to do about that: certainly, some way of listing, mounting and umounting media is desirable in Konqueror, but the question is which? I'll have to address that and get some input when I finally get around to blogging about all this

neverendingo wrote: KDE3 is still alive (if KDE4 is not for you)

Agreed everybody?

Yes.
[size=x-small](Obvious spoiler if you plan to play that game)[/size]
Let's all get along and enjoy the cake.

blackbelt_jones, maybe you can post a "KDE3 in Kubuntu 8.10" howto in the tutorial section?

Hans wrote:
blackbelt_jones, maybe you can post a "KDE3 in Kubuntu 8.10" howto in the tutorial section?

Nooooooo problem!:thumbs_up: