Increase the width of the thumbnail to make it cover more screen space.

Host the image in a site like imageshack.us and paste the link to it here.

andre_orwell wrote:I agree.. I don't see the need for this to be implemented as a window with transparency. It just needs to be a up-to-date view of an application's window overlayed.

Yes, I agree.[hr]

YeahReally wrote:Have you tried the «Thumbnail aside» kwin plugin effect. I think that fulfills what you described.

Hi, thanks for pointing this out.

However it's not exactly what me and andre_orwell try to explain and archieve here. I think me and andre_orwell are sharing the same vision, so I'm waiting for andre_orwell's "mock-up" ... and if I'm not on the same path with him, i'll post mine :-P

I'm also happy that this conversation has already gone to the point that if this "ghost window" feature is easy to arhieve with current architecture or not. «Thumbnail aside» kwin plugin effect seems to prove that it should be:)

[/quote]
However it's not exactly what me and andre_orwell try to explain and archieve here. I think me and andre_orwell are sharing the same vision, so I'm waiting for andre_orwell's "mock-up" ... and if I'm not on the same path with him, i'll post mine :-P
[/quote]

This is pretty quick. I just snapped a window and used gimp to make everything except edges about 30% transparent white then pasted it back over part of my desktop.

The main thing to look at here is the improved usability this provides when compared to a simple semi-transparent thumbnail which significantly blocks the visibility of text and widgets behind. The foreground (ghost) remains readable and changes would be easily visible without too much distraction however adding a little blur would add the impression of depth based defocus. If you can find a way to temporarily shift focus to the ghost this might be interesting also.

Not a mockup

Did you modify the thumbnail aside code at all to get that 'cause I could only get it to draw ... well "thumbnails"...

Anyway it seems very good that there is code already in KDE that does this... I would draw your attention however to the relative readability of the text and widgets in the overlaid windows in your "not a mock-up" and my mock-up. Indeed the reason for doing the mock-up was to allow this comparison so I'm really glad you posted this second image

It seems the functionality is in KDE but the usability can be improved. IMHO that's more that half way there?

YeahReally's image is just normal window transparencies, you can change it by opening the Alt+F3 window menu. What transparency doesn't provide is click-through, which is what this read is about unless I am mistaken.

Zarin wrote:YeahReally's image is just normal window transparencies, you can change it by opening the Alt+F3 window menu. What transparency doesn't provide is click-through, which is what this read is about unless I am mistaken.

Well yes... sorry if I have started running off with an idea in my own head.

Earlier in the thread we established that the "thumbnail aside" effect provided click-through. Thumbnail aside only generates a small view (for me at least) and uses transparency to allow you to see through the the windows behind. It serves as proof that click-through could be implemented without big code changes - great.

Now the original "use case" that started this thread was multi-tasking: monitoring activity in one application (think IM session, build, etc) while working, possibly full-screen, in another.

My follow-up to that is that transparency by itself is not optimal for multi-tasking because readability in the overlay area is poor. I.e. my focus is now on suitability for purpose. Actually making the idea workable in practice.

To achieve a better readability you need to simplify the foreground window: eg. render everything except outlines and text as semi-transparent white. This produces a "ghost" of the window which could be overlaid (with user defined transparency level). It has the advantage of being more "see-through" while also being more readable than simple transparency. But it does require some thinking about how best this might be done.

In terms of how this whole idea might be integrated into day-to-day life... I could imagine instead of minimising a window you could "ghost" a window by say ctrl-click on the minimise button. This "ghosting" minimises the window but leaves behind our click-through live-image of the app. You would restore by switching to the app just as you would any other minimised window.

Anyway, that's what's going on in my head. Hope it makes my ramblings more comprehensible

andre_orwell wrote:Now the original "use case" that started this thread was multi-tasking: monitoring activity in one application (think IM session, build, etc) while working, possibly full-screen, in another.

Exactly. :thumbs_up:

andre_orwell wrote:My follow-up to that is that transparency by itself is not optimal for multi-tasking because readability in the overlay area is poor. I.e. my focus is now on suitability for purpose. Actually making the idea workable in practice.

To achieve a better readability you need to simplify the foreground window: eg. render everything except outlines and text as semi-transparent white. This produces a "ghost" of the window which could be overlaid (with user defined transparency level). It has the advantage of being more "see-through" while also being more readable than simple transparency. But it does require some thinking about how best this might be done.

IMHO this has become actually the main point now: I have a feeling now that the "ghost" window can be done by someone even quite easilly (correct me if I'm wrong). BUT how to make the "ghost" window readable so that it does not disturb a "current working" window too much and one can still follow what's happening in the "ghost" window? Thanks andre_orwell for giving a thought to this issue. Two :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: up

andre_orwell wrote:In terms of how this whole idea might be integrated into day-to-day life... I could imagine instead of minimising a window you could "ghost" a window by say ctrl-click on the minimise button. This "ghosting" minimises the window but leaves behind our click-through live-image of the app. You would restore by switching to the app just as you would any other minimised window.

Anyway, that's what's going on in my head. Hope it makes my ramblings more comprehensible

Quoting Homer S: "Three thumbs up" Thanks for putting this thread again to the right track.

I also would like to hear more from the architecture point of view how this could be possible to be archieved. Myself I have never done a single line of code to KDE :-$ so, people who have knowledge what could be possible "show stoppers" to this issue, please yell out loud now

Zarin wrote:YeahReally's image is just normal window transparencies, you can change it by opening the Alt+F3 window menu. What transparency doesn't provide is click-through, which is what this read is about unless I am mistaken.

Wrong. It is a 500 pixel wide thumbnail. You have to set whe width in the effect settings. That is why I said that this effect is what they are looking for, very closely.

YeahReally wrote:

Zarin wrote:YeahReally's image is just normal window transparencies, you can change it by opening the Alt+F3 window menu. What transparency doesn't provide is click-through, which is what this read is about unless I am mistaken.

Wrong. It is a 500 pixel wide thumbnail. You have to set whe width in the effect settings. That is why I said that this effect is what they are looking for, very closely.

Yes, «Thumbnail aside» has the "click through" functionality. However it's missing the other functionalities andre_orwell well pointed out in his previous post. Forexample we are not looking for a thumbnail but the exact "ghost" of the window...

But thank you alot YeahReally to point out «Thumbnail aside». I use it alot now. If it could just not to do thumbnails/resizing but "keep the window like it is" it would be almost there. Then only some usability stuff would be increased as andre_orwell pointed out. I think i'll write to Luboš Luňák right away

So, the masters of this matter are busy -> time for get my hands dirty then

If there is anyone who want's to join, don't hesitate to contact me I'm really a beginner in kwin/qt4 so don't ask me questions. Yet

Might be able to take a look also... but I'm also learning KDE code. Got to start somewhere

So far I have not had so much time to start with this that much.

There is some existing code available for this and some of the features already. Anyone interested to start with this? I have time to help but not to finish this anyway soon

I have very limited time (day job and lots of end-of year activities). I have started using KDE more seriously though and subscribing to the various lists to get a better feel for things. I have to admit that this feature would not be the most important thing to achieve for KDE at the moment. However it will remain on my radar. Partly because I have experience in image processing and visual perception I am interested in ground level improvement to compositing effects. Ghosting is my interest here, but also things like blurring the image behind a semi-transparent window to simulate light scattering etc would assist in providing a better experience (rather than just wanky effects like exploding windows that you only show off but never really use). The effects classes used to implement thumbnail aside don't seem too tricky to use but I was put off by performance issues on my machine at least. Again it points to the need for lower level improvements.

andre_orwell wrote:Partly because I have experience in image processing and visual perception I am interested in ground level improvement to compositing effects. Ghosting is my interest here, but also things like blurring the image behind a semi-transparent window to simulate light scattering etc would assist in providing a better experience (rather than just wanky effects like exploding windows that you only show off but never really use).

We need someone to fix the blur effect as it's just broken on way too many levels. It even crashes 64-bit systems for some reason. >_<