Update! I was able to add KDE3 to Ubuntu using those repositories, but there was a problem with KDM. I had to disable KDM in order to login via the console. I've communicated with the person who maintains the repositories, and he doesn't know of anyone else who has this problem, but I got my Ibex and I got my KDE3!

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/

It's KDE 3.5.10, which is really quite nice looking, more of an upgrade from 3.5.9 than I would have expected.

akoskm wrote:My opinion is that the goal of KDE4 is a more stable, flexible environment with improved usability, and not the eye-candy things.

We agree that's the goal. Do you think that's the current reality?

When I use KDE 4, I can sense the possibility in terms of maybe organizing information in new ways. I see the potential, and I'm very enthusiastic about that, but we're not there. The present day reality I see is not more flexibility, and not more usability,

Now that I get a better picture of what's going on, there's really nothing to criticize the KDE team about except maybe some bad public relations decisions. Development should focus on KDE4 and KDE3 should be moved to "maintenance mode."[hr]

blackbelt_jones wrote:

akoskm wrote:My opinion is that the goal of KDE4 is a more stable, flexible environment with improved usability, and not the eye-candy things.

We agree that's the goal. Do you think that's the current reality?

When I use KDE 4, I can sense the possibility in terms of maybe organizing information in new ways. I see the potential, and I'm very enthusiastic about that, but we're not there yet. The present day reality I see is not more flexibility, and not more usability,

JontheEchinda wrote:

kolla wrote:

Alec wrote:If you don't think KDE4 is mature, KDE 3.5 will be continued to be maintained for you for years.

Not if the distro pushed on you is Ubuntu.

Hardy is still supported for another year.

Just to make sure everyone gets it, let me state it again. There is at least 1 unofficial repository for KDE 3.5.10 in Ubuntu Intrepid Ipex. I'm running KDE3 in Intrepid right now.

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/

Some distros are wanting to support one version of KDE, and, like it or not, that's often going to be KDE4. But KDE 3 is going to be supported for years if people keep using it. I'm beginning to get the idea that unofficial repositories are going to be picking up the slack.

For the Intrepid repos, my advice is that you consult the administrator before you mix KDE 3 and KDE4. I used the repos to add KDE3 to a gnome-based Ubuntu install.

Kryten2X4B wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:When Insipid Ibex dropped KDE3, it was a shock, and some people in here can tell you, I was MAD. Well, guess what? Looks the some enterprising community member has filled in the gap.

Which is probably exactly what Aaron meant. That is, if an individual/organization/whatever think KDE3.x needs to be maintained on a distro-level they can do so. Not that KDE, Kubuntu, or whatever is under an obligation to do so.

Still, KDE3.x is maintained by KDE. Note the word maintained, which means keeping the infrastructure intact (should one choose to use it) and accepting bugfixes and security fixes when needed. No new features will be introduced. And as far as I've understood it, the reason behind that is because the code has grown so complex over the years that it has become really hard to NOT introduce new bugs whenever someone changes the code ever so slightly.

Here's an article from Aaron that covers this subject beautifully. Anybody who wants to understand the future of KDE3 ought to read this.

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

I just installed KDE4.2 alpha, and am giving that a run.

I think the direction of KDE is a good one. My initial impression of 4.2 is positive.

KDE4.2 is getting more options for user preferences and control. Plus more features.

Things I like: taskbar grouping is back and taskbar ordering is back - alphabetical, manual, or none [none seems to rearrange tasks after a desktop switch]

Taskbar icon rearrangement.

More right-click actions for konqueror. Ark[?] is built in to konqueror with autodetect subfolder.


It looks very promising to me.

Some guys said that Kubuntu team is responsible for all negative responses about KDE4? Ridiculous! KDE team raised all the noise about greatest ever beautiful new release and everybody rushed to see what it is. Distributors rushed to satisfy curious users. So what they got? You see what.

Fedora 9 packaged KDE4.0 release and got whole lot of same negative opinions. Kubuntu did it with 4.1.2, now 4.1.3 and got the same. May be it is really something wrong with KDE false advertising and cheated user expectations?

alukin wrote:Kubuntu did it with 4.1.2, now 4.1.3 and got the same. May be it is really something wrong with KDE false advertising and cheated user expectations?

Err. Myeah, but 4.1.2 and 4.1.3 are essentially the same release, allthough the latter has less bugs - which is the whole point of minor version releases.

4.1 and the upcoming 4.2 are releases which introduce new features, along with more bugfixes. So it seem kind of natural that a comparison between minor version releases will generate the same kind of criticism.

I mean that update is available but bugs still there. For instance, Kopete crashes every time I leave KDE session.
And main point is not the difference between minor releases. Again, main point is false advertising and release rush.

Now KDE team tries to back off and says things like this: "Is KDE4 for you?", "KDE3 is still here and supported!", "Wait until feature-complete 4.2" and so on.

Who pushed them to scream on every net corner about greatest ever KDE 4.0 ? That's the result of stupid paradigm "Release often, release early!" and Microsoft-like advertising of incomplete and raw product. So they have now all headache possible of such approach.

Eh. Greatest ever KDE 4.0? Where did you get that from? I thought it had been stressed that the oh release was only for developer.

By the way, have you read http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html ? blackbelt_jones has already posted the link several times in the forums, but if you've missed it I recommend you to take a look - you might even find it interesting.

I agree that the KDE team should have made it clear that the 4.0 release was alpha quality software and that KDE 4 is still progressing towards a stable working environment. I think it's a bit unfair to still play the blame game regarding the release of 4.0. After that things have been significantly toned down.

The fact that major distributions like openSUSE and particularly Kubuntu are already including KDE 4 as the default KDE desktop is the responsibility of the distribution team, not the KDE developers. I believe the version of openSUSE including KDE 4 is still in beta and Ubuntu is known for its inclusion of bleeding edge software - that's probably the reason why it's one of the most popular distributions.

The KDE team still publish maintenance and security upgrades for KDE 3 and is packaged by all major distributions. Even Ubuntu has a community driven KDE backport service for the new and possibly future Ubuntu releases. Debian is still shipping with KDE 3 as the default KDE environment and I'm pretty sure other non-Ubuntu deriatives will also have a more conservative approach to KDE inclusion.

It's unfortunate that Kopete crashes when you leave a KDE session, but you can't expect every single bug on every possible setup to be squashed in a new maintenance release. Especially if you haven't notified the Kopete developers of the bug. Have you searched their bug tracker for reports on said bug?

Well, I exaggerate a bit may be, but I think that is is completely wrong way to attract regular users as alpha and beta testers. I'm not going to search web achieves of KDE announcements, but they sounded exactly as I stated.

It is the straight road to loose users. I'm not going to argue, just look at the headers and read opinions on forums. KDE4 is good only for KDE4 developers. Rest of users may say something from "KDE 4 is great software, but..." to "KDE4 is total mess".

What I'm trying to say that it is big mistake to release SO EARLY.

Aaron Seigo makes a lot of valid points in his post from January 2008 linked by Hans, but this one is important regarding early releases:

KDE is not a proprietary software product: this is another obvious statement, but it's one people seem to forget. While there is proprietary software that gets written using KDE technology, KDE itself is not and never will be proprietary.

In the open source method you release early, you release often. By doing so, a progression is presented that people can follow with fairly blunt (often overly pessimistic) guidance along with it, e.g.: "foobar v 0.0.1: will eat your children". In theory you can't do that with proprietary software due to the distribution mechanism and economic repercussions (though many companies do anyways), but with open source it is exactly what one must do to get the production wheels turning.

KDE 4.0.0 is our "will eat your children" release of KDE4, not the next release of KDE 3.5. The fact that many already use it daily for their desktop (including myself) shows that it really won't eat your children, but it is part of that early stage in the release system of KDE4. It's the "0.0" release. The amount of new software in KDE4 is remarkable and we're going the open route with that.

Well, this is the root of problem. Look at Apache Tomcat or Netbeans. They release often. But not so EARLY. I think that some guys took this damned stupid "early" too close and decided to call "release" things that are pre-alpha.

What you've got as result? You scared and droved mad a whole community of KDE users.That's all you've got with this strategy. Personally I even do not want to fill bug reports anymore. I do not have time to fill hundreds of bug reports.

Look, If you have so massive negative feedback then something goes completely wrong. I guess the cause is "release early" paradigm.

BTW, now is 4.1.3 release and it still drives users crazy.

Nobody is forcing you to use KDE 4 of course if you find it too buggy. KDE 3.5 is still the official stable KDE release. KDE 4.0 is not pre-alpha, but alpha quality software. It's not feature complete, especially compared to KDE 3. 4.1 to me is the first true beta of KDE 4, 4.2 probably is as well, but more mature and feature rich.

I fail to see why 4.1.3 drives users crazy in any way. It's the same release as 4.1.2, 4.1.1 and 4.1, but with less bugs. There are probably still enough bugs to justify a 4.1.4, 4.1.5 and even a 4.1.6 release. As I've said, 4.1 is a solid beta release, with all the problems related to beta quality software.

The only mistake that has been made is probably that the expectations for KDE 4.0 were too high. They maybe should have emphasised the credo "this software will probably eat your children" more to downplay the excitement about KDE 4.0 being the ultimate evolution of KDE 3 - which it obviously isn't.

If you don't release structural changes in a major project like KDE you're not reaching enough users to gather enough bug reports. People compiling from SVN are a minority in comparison to the people who do want to file bug reports and use bleeding edge software but lack the necessary compiling skills to build from the trunk. So I believe early releases are necessary because they cater to the needs of people who want to use hot new stuff. If you don't want buggy software and a stable, mature environment don't use the sofware in question, it's not that you paid for the privilege of using it or anything.

Now you have enough bug reports and user feedback.
Continue with this and I'll see your userbase growth.

Some people can not see obvious things...