einar wrote:Will "Bille" Stephenson has put up an explanation on why the KDE 3 version of KNetworkManager was like that on the dot:...

I understand that, and appreciate that real life trumps open source development. And I can understand why the old systray architecture was thrown out in favor of every-evolving-api Plasma. But I'm still somewhat puzzled why this didn't get requests for help and why the alternative was removed as well. I would thought this would have had a higher priority than it did.

KNetworkManager is in a particular unfortunate situation.
DIstributions ship newer versions of networkmanager even if the KDE UI has not been updated yet, where an update sometimes means major rewrites because the networkmanager's D-Bus interface changed a lot in an incompatible way.

Some distributions go as far as including an version which hasn't even been released yet by the networkmanager team itself!

KNetworkManager may be easily replaced by nm-applet that works. And this applet does not demonstrate piggish attitude of KDE4 team to users. Panel does. Look at KDE panel. It is significant part of DE and it is still ugly. It can't resize vertically, it can't change color, it can't even correctly draw itself or applet icons. Is panel important for users? Is it to hard to make it a little bit user-friendly?

That's what I'm saying. They just spit on users saying incantations that it is developer release. But this release is default at least in 2 major distributions.

alukin wrote:KNetworkManager may be easily replaced by nm-applet that works. And this applet does not demonstrate piggish attitude of KDE4 team to users. Panel does. Look at KDE panel. It is significant part of DE and it is still ugly.

Exactly how hard is it to change the theme if you don't like the look the distro in question uses as their default theme?

alukin wrote:It can't resize vertically, it can't change color, it can't even correctly draw itself or applet icons. Is panel important for users? Is it to hard to make it a little bit user-friendly?

Apart from the annoying systray-bug, all of that works.

alukin wrote:That's what I'm saying. They just spit on users saying incantations that it is developer release. But this release is default at least in 2 major distributions.

Which distro is using 4.0.x? Suse 11.0 do, but 11.1 is due in just a few weeks. Kubuntu 8.04 did, but that's no longer the latest version. And both of those warned the users that it was not as polished or bugfree as Gnome or KDE 3.x.

Kryten2X4B wrote:

alukin wrote:KNetworkManager may be easily replaced by nm-applet that works. And this applet does not demonstrate piggish attitude of KDE4 team to users. Panel does. Look at KDE panel. It is significant part of DE and it is still ugly.

Exactly how hard is it to change the theme if you don't like the look the distro in question uses as their default theme?

He can use Aya http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Aya?content=76197 a theme that even adjust to system colors, but it looks like he don't want to try anything,because he complains about things that are already changed.

For people that have problems with knetworkmanager there is also wicd that can be used.

Dryfit wrote:For people that have problems with knetworkmanager there is also wicd that can be used.

I am using Wicd. It's ugly with a somewhat awkward interface, but at least it works and has a small footprint.

alukin wrote:KNetworkManager may be easily replaced by nm-applet that works. And this applet does not demonstrate piggish attitude of KDE4 team to users. Panel does. Look at KDE panel. It is significant part of DE and it is still ugly. It can't resize vertically, it can't change color, it can't even correctly draw itself or applet icons. Is panel important for users? Is it to hard to make it a little bit user-friendly?

That's what I'm saying. They just spit on users saying incantations that it is developer release. But this release is default at least in 2 major distributions.

At the risk of feeding the troll, please feel free to go and use gnome, xfce or another DE if KDE4, which has been piggishly developed and provided to you for free, is not to your liking.

Yes, it is hard to make a user-friendly DE. That's why there are only a couple with significant market share today - and those don't run on linux.

Of course KDE developers are aware of the limitations of the current panel - which is why it is being actively worked on for KDE 4.2. If you think this kind of response is "spitting" on users then please knock up some patches yourself to improve panel usability - I mean, it's not too hard is it??

alukin wrote:Look at KDE panel.

Oh yes, let's look at it, shall we?

It is significant part of DE and it is still ugly.

Is it? I have no problems with it's looks. If I disliked it, I would switch themes.

It can't resize vertically

Yes it can. It's not KDE's problem if you are too dumb to resize the panel.

it can't change color

Yes it can.

it can't even correctly draw itself or applet icons.

I haven't seen any problems there.

That's what I'm saying. They just spit on users

Yeah, they "spit on users" by busting their **** writing software that you give to you FOR FREE! And what do you do? *****, whine and moan. You whine because the software you were given as a gift doesn't exactly work the way you want it to work.

I bet that if someone gave you a brand-new BMW as a gift, you would whine "It'silver! I wanted a black BMW! You suck!".

Remind me to never give you any gifts. And that includes my time and effort helping you if you have problems. After all, I wouldn't want you to think that I'm "spitting" on you if my advice isn't suitable.

Why don't you go and write your own damn desktop? Then we could all whine to you how you software sucks, and how you are "spitting" at us.

there is critique and feedback, and then there's unconstructive whining.

+1 Pretty true

Just remember these people on the dot 1 year ago: "Plasma is ****, give us the old kicker back"

Does someone here still think that plasma or the brand new kwin are ****?
Hey and I didn't even mention the other amazing technologies behind kde4, do you (trolls) know a little about them?

Seems that I'm fighting windmills, but anyway... What I'm fighting is bad software quality and KDE4 in present state is the screaming example of it. Is KDE important for open source? Yes. It is very important. Is KDE4.1 included as default in major distributions? Yes it is. Is it somewhat good for users? No no and no. All we can see a lot of negative feedback everywhere. It cheats user's expectations, it does not allow user to work in familiar fashion, if lacks key features. So KDE4 in its present state is poisonous for free software world.

Don't please say me that it is free software and I must be grateful and obedient and use what you mercy gave me. Even if you feel you are some charity organization, it is not a good thing to give people raw rat meat. I do not need any such gifts.

Does someone think that free software is a kind of gift? This is oxymoronish and ridiculous. Free software is hard work, much harder then work in M$. If you do not make money on it, you make your reputation, your good CV, satisfy your ambition or whatever.

I write free soft and teach free soft and it is my money source. And I'm saying thank you community that does this great new world. But I can not say thank you to people who thinks that they are giving me mercy or charity or any kind of gift. And I'd rather do not want see such people at the free software community. They are poisonous.

I'm trying to explain that releasing alpha and even beta software with big advertising noise and commercial promotion is stupid and poisonous thing. If you honestly say that is is development public release, everybody understands it and all is correct and everybody is happy. If you saing it is "an end of big development cycle" and it is real release then everybody expects that it rocks and pushes it to end user.

Is KDE being pushed to end user? Yes it is. Is it ready for regular user? No, it is not. Who is benefiting from such stupid strategy? Everybody looses. Do you need massive negative feedback from around the world to see that something wrong? No, you need 3-4 relatively small targeted user groups. But it needs thinking, strategy development and negotiations with distributors. No, we just release because we're doing a kindness and giving gifts!

Don't even try to shut me up by silly things "you are stupid or lazy to try different themes" or "why do you not write your own patch". I tried all of themes. Regular user won't be changing configs by hands and can not write path. I do not want or not have time. But this is not a topic.

Topic is bad management of KDE project that is based on misunderstanding of "release often, release early" concept. Goal is to stop this stupid trend.

Free software is fighting it's way to user by quality and superiority and things like KDE4 "early release" is a gunshot in the back.

alukin wrote:Seems that I'm fighting windmills, but anyway... What I'm fighting is bad software quality and KDE4 in present state is the screaming example of it.

And what would you like to do about it? See the software get better? What an insightful suggestion!

KDe4 is getting better as we speak. Everyone seems to agree that 4.2 is a giant leap ahead when compared to 4.1 (which was a giant leap ahead when compared to KDe 4.0). So what exactly is the problem here? That at this very moment KDE4 is not good enough? Well, too bad. There's nothing that could be done about that at this very moment. No matter how much you whine, KDE4 will not magically get better. It will get better with new releases, and it seems that the next release is (again) a hge step forward.

So what do you hope to accomplish with your whining?

Is KDE important for open source? Yes. It is very important. Is KDE4.1 included as default in major distributions? Yes it is. Is it somewhat good for users? No no and no.

There are lots of users using 4.1 and being happy about it. It's arrogant in the extreme to assume that just because you don't like it, everyone else must hate it as well.

All we can see a lot of negative feedback everywhere.

In case you didn't realize this before: people who have problems, issues or generally something to complain about, tend to do so. people who do NOT have problems do not usually advertise that fact. they don't go to forums and tell people "I'm using KDE4 and I'm having no problems with it".

It cheats user's expectations, it does not allow user to work in familiar fashion, if lacks key features.

What "key-features" would those be? And fact is that the missing functionality is being added as we speak.

So KDE4 in its present state is poisonous for free software world.

Well boo-frigging-hoo.

Don't please say me that it is free software and I must be grateful and obedient and use what you mercy gave me.

I haven't given you anything. I'm not part of the project.

But it IS pretty arrgoant to whine about something that was given to you as a gift. About something that you are not forced to use in any shape or form.

Even if you feel you are some charity organization, it is not a good thing to give people raw rat meat. I do not need any such gifts.

then don't accept the gift and quit your whining.

Does someone think that free software is a kind of gift? This is oxymoronish and ridiculous. Free software is hard work, much harder then work in M$. If you do not make money on it, you make your reputation, your good CV, satisfy your ambition or whatever.

But how does any of that matter to you, the user? If the developers ruin their reputation or some other **** like that, isn't it their problem, not yours?

I write free soft and teach free soft and it is my money source.

Well good for you! Just curious: what software would that be?

But I can not say thank you to people who thinks that they are giving me mercy or charity or any kind of gift.

They give you software for free. Software that you can choose to use, or not to use. What is that if not a gift? Do you feel that you are somehow ENTITLED to the software?

And I'd rather do not want see such people at the free software community. They are poisonous.

****.

Don't even try to shut me up by silly things "you are stupid or lazy to try different themes" or "why do you not write your own patch".

You whined how the panel looks "ugly". Well, it doesn't look ugly to me. But you arrogantly assumed that your opinion is the universal truth. If you think it's ugly, it MUST be ugly for everybody. I just commented that if you dislike the appearance of the panel, go right ahead and change it.

At this point the best thing would be for you stop your dumb whining. So you don't like KDE4. Well, that's your choice. use something else. But there are loads of users who are happy with it. And fact is that it's getting better FAST.

I REALLY fail to see what you hope to accomplish with your whining. Could you enlighten me?

alukin wrote:Seems that I'm fighting windmills, but anyway... What I'm fighting is bad software quality and KDE4 in present state is the screaming example of it. Is KDE important for open source? Yes. It is very important. Is KDE4.1 included as default in major distributions? Yes it is. Is it somewhat good for users? No no and no. All we can see a lot of negative feedback everywhere. It cheats user's expectations, it does not allow user to work in familiar fashion, if lacks key features. So KDE4 in its present state is poisonous for free software world.

Don't please say me that it is free software and I must be grateful and obedient and use what you mercy gave me. Even if you feel you are some charity organization, it is not a good thing to give people raw rat meat. I do not need any such gifts.

Does someone think that free software is a kind of gift? This is oxymoronish and ridiculous. Free software is hard work, much harder then work in M$. If you do not make money on it, you make your reputation, your good CV, satisfy your ambition or whatever.

I write free soft and teach free soft and it is my money source. And I'm saying thank you community that does this great new world. But I can not say thank you to people who thinks that they are giving me mercy or charity or any kind of gift. And I'd rather do not want see such people at the free software community. They are poisonous.

I'm trying to explain that releasing alpha and even beta software with big advertising noise and commercial promotion is stupid and poisonous thing. If you honestly say that is is development public release, everybody understands it and all is correct and everybody is happy. If you saing it is "an end of big development cycle" and it is real release then everybody expects that it rocks and pushes it to end user.

Is KDE being pushed to end user? Yes it is. Is it ready for regular user? No, it is not. Who is benefiting from such stupid strategy? Everybody looses. Do you need massive negative feedback from around the world to see that something wrong? No, you need 3-4 relatively small targeted user groups. But it needs thinking, strategy development and negotiations with distributors. No, we just release because we're doing a kindness and giving gifts!

Don't even try to shut me up by silly things "you are stupid or lazy to try different themes" or "why do you not write your own patch". I tried all of themes. Regular user won't be changing configs by hands and can not write path. I do not want or not have time. But this is not a topic.

Topic is bad management of KDE project that is based on misunderstanding of "release often, release early" concept. Goal is to stop this stupid trend.

Free software is fighting it's way to user by quality and superiority and things like KDE4 "early release" is a gunshot in the back.

Man, I know exactly how you feel, but you're wrong. In terms of development, the KDE project is managed just fine, they're doing exactly what they ought to be doing-- but there are communication problems.

KDE3 remains alive and well, You don't have to use KDE4. Even if the distros drop KDE3, the community of KDE3 users will usually be able to provide a way to allow you to make your own choice. KDE3 will continue to be maintained, and to be available for the next few years... and longer, if it keeps its user base. Read about it here.

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

The KDE team is developers, and they're interested in what is new. so you can get the idea looking at their website that KDE3 is dead or dying, and this is where the problem begins.

I'm a user, not a developer, so I'm naturally more interested in stable familiar software like KDE3, so I'm going to take responsibility for getting the word out about KDE3's long-term viability. If you want KDE3 to survive, that's not fighting windmills, that's easy. You can join us.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28353308082

KDE4 isn't the enemy. Ignorance is.

Ok. just a hint for everyone, please cool down and try to make fruitful discussion. Just remember the http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
There is no need to be aggressive or blame other people for something.
So if you really feel to discuss on this topic any more be aware that it is with respect. If not, i will close this thread.

neverendingo wrote:Ok. just a hint for everyone, please cool down and try to make fruitful discussion. Just remember the http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
There is no need to be aggressive or blame other people for something.
So if you really feel to discuss on this topic any more be aware that it is with respect. If not, i will close this thread.

My apologies for everyone involved. Including Alukin.

If the intent for KDE4 is to scare the **** out of Windows users, then it will
be massively successful. When I upgraded my wife's desktop computer from
Kubuntu Dapper to Kubuntu 8.10, I nearly sh*t when I saw the wierd looking
desktop. I warned my wife -- "it's a little wierd looking, honey, but I'm sure
it'll be fine". The next day I got 4 panicky emails from her about how she
couldn't use the machine at all and was just short of putting the machine out
on the curb for trash day. I think I've averted that by having her install xfce, but
you sure lost two long time KDE users today.

I read on a forum somewhere that there's some kind of backward compatibility
mode you can invoke, but I sure can't find it. I found a button to turn off "effects",
which will probably speed things up some, but the application ("Start") menu
is really non-intuitive if you've been running KDE3 or XP recently.

I recently gave a Kubuntu 8.10 disk to a friend so they could install it on their
(formerly) Windows laptop. Now I'm sorry I did that without running it first --
she was pretty mystified and I couldn't understand why -- NOW I understand.
It'll be a miracle if she stays with Kubuntu after seeing KDE4 and that's "Linux".
Another person who will be able to tell her friends "Linux is hard to use".

I realize that the developers have their blood, sweat, and tears in this and that
my beef is probably with the kubuntu people for dropping KDE3, but I was so
dismayed by this new interface that I felt it was worth the hour to create an account
and write this message, because perhaps it's not too late to put in some KDE3
"compatibility" modes so you don't scare away the potential converts from XP.

Personally, I'm going to move my wife's and my computers to Xubuntu (xfce), and
if *that* gets "enhanced" like KDE4, then I'll go back to fvwm like the "good old
days".

Suggestions on how to improve the usability of KDE4 by making it less avant-garde
are welcomed.

Thanks for reading,
Bill Dudley
Long time unix/FreeBSD/Linux user and professional programmer