This is so weird!

I've actually come around, am using KDE 4.1.3, and I am really getting into it! I thought I had finally made my peace with I was writing about this to someone who was complainng about Kubuntu and refusing to install it. I was going to tell him him he should go ahead and try it, but I was also going to send him a link to the pearson repository, but this is what I found.

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/

I have been personally contacted by the Kubuntu developers and asked to take the repository offline. At this point, to avoid further problems, that is what I have done.

Don't worry, we will be working on a proper way to get KDE3 onto Intrepid!

How can they shut down unofficial repsitories? What right do they have to tell other people how to use the software? I was using the Pearson repository with Ubuntu, not Kubuntu... so why should Kubuntu have a problem with that?

I don't understand this, but since I think I was so very wrong about KDE 4 in the first place, I just don't have any more ranting in me. I don't know what's going on here. I have to boycott Kubuntu until I find out what's up with this, and I've already switched to KDE 4.1.3 on opensuse, a distro that thrives on unofficial repositories (there are some other reasons for the switch.) But I don't know what's going on, and I don't want to rant any more. I can't presume this is as repressive as it seems until I know more. Can anybody explain this to me?

I guess that means the Kubuntu developers are working to give official support of KDE3 on Intrepid.

IMO This is a good thing anyway.

pansz wrote:I guess that means the Kubuntu developers are working to give official support of KDE3 on Intrepid.

IMO This is a good thing anyway.

Well, that would be a good reason I guess, but this is going to break the system of everybody who is installed, isn't it? They won't be able to install any more KDE packages. Can you imagine? Thank God I had just switched, or I'd be off and running. I wouldn't be able to help myself.

As far as I read on kubuntu-devel, the reason is those packages are somewhat "dangerous" to use on an Intrepid system. Why is that so, I don't know (I don't have an Intrepid install).

blackbelt_jones wrote:This is so weird!

I've actually come around, am using KDE 4.1.3, and I am really getting into it! I thought I had finally made my peace with I was writing about this to someone who was complainng about Kubuntu and refusing to install it. I was going to tell him him he should go ahead and try it, but I was also going to send him a link to the pearson repository, but this is what I found.

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/

I have been personally contacted by the Kubuntu developers and asked to take the repository offline. At this point, to avoid further problems, that is what I have done.

Don't worry, we will be working on a proper way to get KDE3 onto Intrepid!

How can they shut down unofficial repsitories? What right do they have to tell other people how to use the software? I was using the Pearson repository with Ubuntu, not Kubuntu... so why should Kubuntu have a problem with that?

I don't understand this, but since I think I was so very wrong about KDE 4 in the first place, I just don't have any more ranting in me. I don't know what's going on here. I have to boycott Kubuntu until I find out what's up with this, and I've already switched to KDE 4.1.3 on opensuse, a distro that thrives on unofficial repositories (there are some other reasons for the switch.) But I don't know what's going on, and I don't want to rant any more. I can't presume this is as repressive as it seems until I know more. Can anybody explain this to me?

Check KDE3 here:
https://launchpad.net/~kb9vqf/+archive

To be honest, I can't really track your opinions anymore. First you tell that you want to use KDE3 because you don't like KDE4. Then you tell that you really like KDE4. Then you say that KDE3 should be forked so it could be used, then you tell that you are using KDE4 and really liking it, but you are distressed because unofficial KDE3-repository has been taken offline....

So what is it: are you using KDE4 and liking it? Or do you want to stick to KDE3?

Janne wrote:To be honest, I can't really track your opinions anymore. First you tell that you want to use KDE3 because you don't like KDE4. Then you tell that you really like KDE4. Then you say that KDE3 should be forked so it could be used, then you tell that you are using KDE4 and really liking it, but you are distressed because unofficial KDE3-repository has been taken offline....

So what is it: are you using KDE4 and liking it? Or do you want to stick to KDE3?

I'm still trying to get a handle on what is going on here, but if Kubuntu has pressured the madscientist into breaking 200 Ubuntu systems, I don't have to be one of those 200 people to find that troubling. I'm half expecting that there's going to be a reasonable explanation, and trying not to go all crazy, but it appears to me that Kubuntu is behaving in proprietary manner in regard to software that is not proprietary. I'm going to continue searching the web for answers when I get the chance.

But to answer your question, yes, I'm using KDE4.1.3, and liking it very much.[hr]

einar wrote:As far as I read on kubuntu-devel, the reason is those packages are somewhat "dangerous" to use on an Intrepid system. Why is that so, I don't know (I don't have an Intrepid install).

Dangerous? Because it could possibly break your system? Could use a link here, but thanks.[hr]

SeaJey wrote:

Check KDE3 here:
https://launchpad.net/~kb9vqf/+archive

This appears to be the same repository that has been taken offline.[hr]

blackbelt_jones wrote:

Janne wrote:To be honest, I can't really track your opinions anymore. First you tell that you want to use KDE3 because you don't like KDE4. Then you tell that you really like KDE4. Then you say that KDE3 should be forked so it could be used, then you tell that you are using KDE4 and really liking it, but you are distressed because unofficial KDE3-repository has been taken offline....

So what is it: are you using KDE4 and liking it? Or do you want to stick to KDE3?

I'm still trying to get a handle on what is going on here, but if Kubuntu has pressured the madscientist into breaking 200 Ubuntu systems, I don't have to be one of those 200 people to find that troubling. I'm half expecting that there's going to be a reasonable explanation, and trying not to go all crazy, but it appears to me that Kubuntu is behaving in a proprietary manner in regard to software that is not proprietary. They're not responsible for an unofficial repository, and they should say so. They have every right to insist that the Pearson repository should make clear that this is not an official repository.

I'm going to continue searching the web for answers when I get the chance.

But to answer your question, yes, I'm using KDE4.1.3, and liking it very much.[hr]

einar wrote:As far as I read on kubuntu-devel, the reason is those packages are somewhat "dangerous" to use on an Intrepid system. Why is that so, I don't know (I don't have an Intrepid install).

Dangerous? Because it could possibly break your system? Could use a link here, but thanks.[hr]

SeaJey wrote:

Check KDE3 here:
https://launchpad.net/~kb9vqf/+archive

This appears to be the same repository that has been taken offline.

After about 40 minutes of random Google, I found something about KDE3 screwing up configuration files for people who attempted to downgrade from 4 to 3. I think this might be a good reason to advise people to use Ubuntu instead of Kubuntu, as I did, but it doesn't justify strong-arming madscientist into taking down the repositories.

It's called "a bug". Without stuff like this, there would be no Debian SId, and for that matter, there would be no KDE4.

I suppose I could go right to the KUbuntu forums and start getting all direct confrontational, but for now I'm just going to keep googling for answers, and sharing what I find.

This appears to be the same repository that has been taken offline.

Even better - it does not want to remove my KDE4 installation

No strong-arming was involved. We notified madscientist of the issues his packages had and he graciously has taken the repository down until he can fix the issues. In fact, he came to us asking for advice on how to make his packages better. The main issue is that his packages will cause major problems during distribution upgrades (8.10 -> 9.04, etc) due to the method it uses to make sure that packages of higher versions (KDE4) don't get installed. Kubuntu and madscientist are collaborating on getting semi-official KDE3 packages available for Intrepid that won't actually cause issues in the future.

We don't hate KDE3. We don't hate KDE3 users. We're just trying to prevent 200 users from completely messing up their systems next distribution upgrade. The reason that we asked the repository to be taken down is that once you install the current packages it is (was) offering, the only way to get proper KDE3 packages would to be uninstall KDE completely from Intrepid, and then install the new packages. To prevent more people from having to go through this hassle the repository has been temporarily removed.

The main reason I'm responding is to make you stop slandering us. We're not a group of bad-guys taking away KDE3 from poor Mr. user. If you had read the message madscientist left carefully, you would have seen that he agrees that the package implementation is completely broken. You would have also seen that the downtime will be temporary rather than permanent. The fact of the matter is that these packages were ticking timebombs, and we would rather have KDE3 uninstallable for a little while on Intrepid than having several hundred bug reports to invalidate when Kubuntu 9.04 comes around.

JontheEchinda wrote:

We don't hate KDE3. We don't hate KDE3 users. We're just trying to prevent 200 users from completely messing up their systems next distribution upgrade. The reason that we asked the repository to be taken down is that once you install the current packages it is (was) offering, the only way to get proper KDE3 packages would to be uninstall KDE completely from Intrepid, and then install the new packages. To prevent more people from having to go through this hassle the repository has been temporarily removed.


The main reason I'm responding is to make you stop slandering us. We're not a group of bad-guys taking away KDE3 from poor Mr. user. If you had read the message madscientist left carefully, you would have seen that he agrees that the package implementation is completely broken. You would have also seen that the downtime will be temporary rather than permanent. The fact of the matter is that these packages were ticking timebombs, and we would rather have KDE3 uninstallable for a little while on Intrepid than having several hundred bug reports to invalidate when Kubuntu 9.04 comes around.

It's not slanderous to ask questions, and I still don't don't understand. And I'm still confused. To prevent screwing up their systems later, you're screwing up their systems now?

I'm a KDE 4 user now, and it's not really about KDE3 and KDE4 anymore. The point of unofficial repsitories is that they're supposed to be independent. It's always experimental, and it's not your responsibility. I've had lots of upgrade problems with Debian Sid, and I knew what I was getting into.

Anyway, you answered my question, I've expressed my opinion, and that's all there is to be done here. It's just another example of why I finally went with KDE4, cause I just had to give it up or I'd be fighting for every foot of territory, and losing all the way. And maybe rightfully so. Paradoxically, KDE4 was not my choice, but I really love it anyway. So maybe it isn't really all about choice?

It seems pretty simple to me.

The Kubuntu guys have, as far as I know, no right to shut down the site in question. However, they can nicely ask the site owner to stop spreading the packages, as they can cause problems. If the owner refused, I don't know what would happen - probably nothing at all. But it seems that madscientist agrees with the Kubuntu developers, and now is working to fix the problems. "Don't worry, we will be working on a proper way to get KDE3 onto Intrepid!"

What I don't get is why you're so upset about all this blackbelt_jones. No one is taking your KDE3 away from you. However, freedom and choice is not equal to "everybody has to do what I want". This is probably not what you want to say, but to me it sounds that way (no offense). :undecided:
(Maybe not so much in this particular thread, but rather the overall impression after reading your posts in the forum).

JontheEchinda wrote:We're just trying to prevent 200 users from completely messing up their systems next distribution upgrade.

And the difference when it comes to this specific repository to any other random ppa or otherwise (semi)un-official repo such as medibuntu (or even non-repos such as getdeb.net) is?

Every time a repo is added there's a potential that the system will become messed up, either immediately or when the next release comes around (besides, dist-upgrade has a tendency to screw up systems regardless if additional repos are in use or not and regardless of distro. Let's put it this way: I don't trust dist-upgrades whether it's a Ubuntu/Suse/Fedora/whatever. They're more trouble than they're worth).

It really should be up to the user if it's worth the risk. Make sure the user(s) interested know the risks if they would go down that path, sure. Make sure the packages becomes better, sure. Warn those (the relatively few I would guess) who has a support-contract if they do that the contract will be void, sure. That's all well and good. At the end of the day, it's their choice to make and the only responsibility the Kubuntu (in this case) devs have is to make sure their packages are as good as you can make them and that your users know the risks of adding third-party software.

Still, if you want to prevent people from messing up their systems when the next dist-upgrade comes along (given that it would work perfectly) the only viable option is to disable the ability to add third-party repos completely, not to mention other third-party software not distributed through the repo-system. And that would rather defeat the point in having a repo-system in the first place, wouldn't it?

The point is: you can't protect users from themselves. And especially not when the users are determined enough to change something for whatever reason AND knows how to get root-privileges on the computer(s) in question.

The packages here are:
A) Known to break your system. (Or known that they will)
B) Easily remedied. No need to break systems if you can work it out with the repository's maintainer, which we are doing.
C) A seemingly-innocent way to get KDE3. Since there is still a niche of people who want KDE3, it would be best if we could have a safe semi-official way of giving it to them rather than having a sure-fire way of breaking their system with known-to-be-buggy packages.

So in a nutshell: The packages are known to be broken. The fix is not an enormous amount of work. The downtime is temporary and it the end result is semi-official KDE3 packages for everybody, which is worth the temporary downtime imo.

So why are we doing something productive about this? It's better than not doing anything at all, and the repository maintainer is very eager to cooperate.

Please keep in mind, as Jon stated: The original author of these packages decided to take it offline.
And as the website states, it will be back, when the problems are worked out.

EDIT: ok, he was faster than me...