Janne wrote:To be honest, I can't really track your opinions anymore. First you tell that you want to use KDE3 because you don't like KDE4. Then you tell that you really like KDE4. Then you say that KDE3 should be forked so it could be used, then you tell that you are using KDE4 and really liking it, but you are distressed because unofficial KDE3-repository has been taken offline....

So what is it: are you using KDE4 and liking it? Or do you want to stick to KDE3?

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What's so confusing? I was wrong. But that's no big deal. There's nothing more edifying in life than being proved wrong, as long as you don't let your ego get in the way of the lesson, and it's happened so many times by now that my ego doesn't depend on being right any more. It's just part of having your own opinions.

I regret nothing. The KDE team doesn't deserve the **** they've been getting from skeptics while they've been creating their awesome desktop, but they needed it. We all need for it not to be easy to change the desktop fundamentally. People should complain. No matter how successful KDE4 has been, next time they get ambitious, I want them to stop and think about it. But when they've been proven wrong, the complainers ought to say so. So I'm saying it. And I'm very happy to say so. I still have reservations... for example, about KDE4 on a live CD or a public library computer. I know there are live KDE4 CDs, but they are primarily demos of KDE4. But what about KDE4 on Knoppix? KDE4 is awesomely configurable on my desktop, but for a single-use generic setup, I'd still prefer KDE3.

But I want to talk about why I'm now using KDE4. And I'll get to that, but right now it's time for Law and Order: Criminal Intent. :shade:

blackbelt_jones wrote: I regret nothing. The KDE team doesn't deserve the **** they've been getting from skeptics while they've been creating their awesome desktop, but they needed it. We all need for it not to be easy to change the desktop fundamentally. People should complain. No matter how successful KDE4 has been, next time they get ambitious, I want them to stop and think about it. But when they've been proven wrong, the complainers ought to say so. So I'm saying it. And I'm very happy to say so.

Thank you for saying this! I completely agree.

Somehow the KDE community got into this weird religious mode where any criticism of KDE 4 was met with hostility. If you aren't 100% happy with KDE4 then you are called a troll, told to go back to GNOME, told to STFU. Even posting about a bug on a mailing list can spawn an angry flame war. This is not healthy.

No piece of software is so sacred that it should be immune from criticism.

Brandybuck wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote: I regret nothing. The KDE team doesn't deserve the **** they've been getting from skeptics while they've been creating their awesome desktop, but they needed it. We all need for it not to be easy to change the desktop fundamentally. People should complain. No matter how successful KDE4 has been, next time they get ambitious, I want them to stop and think about it. But when they've been proven wrong, the complainers ought to say so. So I'm saying it. And I'm very happy to say so.

Thank you for saying this! I completely agree.

Somehow the KDE community got into this weird religious mode where any criticism of KDE 4 was met with hostility. If you aren't 100% happy with KDE4 then you are called a troll, told to go back to GNOME, told to STFU. Even posting about a bug on a mailing list can spawn an angry flame war. This is not healthy.

No piece of software is so sacred that it should be immune from criticism.

Well, here's the thing. If you look at the software in KDE 4.1.3, it's pretty clear that the team has listened to critics and responded positively. The one thing that I complained most bitterly about (no filter bar in Konqueror) has been... fixed! This is what I am most deeply grateful for; they did listen. The fact that the improvements are being made proves that even complaining has value, but I am humbled and impressed that the team was able to use that. And if you ever see me complain again, please put that that in the context of my unending respect.

And it's not like there haven't been nasty, irresponsible trolls out there among the unconvinced. Both sides took it personally, because it was personal for both sides. I don't know of any project as sweeping, ambitious or consequential as KDE4, and people were going to balk. Next time, maybe we'll all handle it better. It was painful for everybody, but in the end, everybody will be rewarded.


For me, I'm switching desktops, but I'm not necessarily switching sides. I was convinced a long time ago that KDE4 was necessary, important, and inevitable. The issue was never really KDE4, it was the future of KDE3. KDE was always ingenious, but now it has gone from our most "traditional" (e.g. windows-like) desktop to perhaps our most innovative. That's great, but I wonder if it leaves us without a traditional desktop. If it does, someone will pick up the mantle, but I'm not going to be surprised if KDE manages to cover that base, too.

Anyway, my central point is that I freaking love KDE 4.1.3. It's like a new toy that stays new. It's like a whole year of Christmas mornings, and I'm eight years old. Thanks, Santa Klaus!

Brandybuck wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote: I regret nothing. The KDE team doesn't deserve the **** they've been getting from skeptics while they've been creating their awesome desktop, but they needed it. We all need for it not to be easy to change the desktop fundamentally. People should complain. No matter how successful KDE4 has been, next time they get ambitious, I want them to stop and think about it. But when they've been proven wrong, the complainers ought to say so. So I'm saying it. And I'm very happy to say so.

Thank you for saying this! I completely agree.

Somehow the KDE community got into this weird religious mode where any criticism of KDE 4 was met with hostility. If you aren't 100% happy with KDE4 then you are called a troll, told to go back to GNOME, told to STFU. Even posting about a bug on a mailing list can spawn an angry flame war. This is not healthy.

No piece of software is so sacred that it should be immune from criticism.

I myself feel it the other way around. For example, every time a 'kde4 suXors' thread came up somewhere, a few rather rabid folks would stir stuff up. I refrain from call it trolling, as I don't believe the he real intent was simply to cause trouble. Telling people that Hardy and KDE3 (for example) were still supported were met with STFU type responses as well as many other mean and derogatory statements.

No it is not healthy. But as I see it, I was getting some flames for supporting something I both like and approve of and agree with. I personally saw more **** from the anti-KDE4 fanatics than the other way around in the forums I visit and mailing lists I subscribe to.

Basically, I think most of it is simply a few buttons getting pushed on either 'side' and I wish there was more of a 'public relations' type of effort to answer people's concerns and questions better, especially as the KDE4 development process took about 2 years (iirc).

Brandybuck wrote:Thank you for saying this! I completely agree.

Somehow the KDE community got into this weird religious mode where any criticism of KDE 4 was met with hostility.

Not quite. Constructive criticism is always valued. And while KDE4 got good amount of constructive feedback, it got A LOT of "KDE sucks! KDE-developers hate users!"-comments.

If you aren't 100% happy with KDE4 then you are called a troll, told to go back to GNOME, told to STFU. Even posting about a bug on a mailing list can spawn an angry flame war. This is not healthy.

I honestly didn't see that happening. I saw something like that happening when people were offering unconstructive feedback ("KDE4 sucks!"), made demands ("You MUST fix this thing NOW!") or endlessly complained about things they were simply misguided about ("You can't have icons in your desktop in KDE4!").

If someone said something like "I have a problem X in Y in KDE4, anyone else seen this?", people most certainly did NOT say stuff like "STFU troll!".

No piece of software is so sacred that it should be immune from criticism

Criticism is fine. Whining and trolling is not.

Janne wrote:Criticism is fine. Whining and trolling is not.

Exactly. Very true.

@OP
Why complain? Have the developers done something so very wrong by omitting a feature that you like? Why not just say "A feature request: can you please find a workaround for xx plasmoid" ? How hard is it to be polite?

claydoh wrote:I myself feel it the other way around. For example, every time a 'kde4 suXors' thread came up somewhere, a few rather rabid folks would stir stuff up.

There was indeed some actual bonafide trolling. On both sides. But I recall more than a few dot.kde threads where a simple criticism along the lines of "please bring back feature X" fired off a string of acrimonious post. The prickly nature of a few developers only exacerbated the problem.[hr]

Janne wrote:Criticism is fine. Whining and trolling is not.

Let me discuss "whining". Some of these criticisms may sound like whining to you, because they keep recurring. But the reason they keep recurring is because they have not been adequately addressed. You can't just backhandedly dismiss complaints and expect them to go away. Criticisms don't have to be addressed positively, but they do need to be addressed. Desktop-as-folder is a good example. For a while we were told that anyone who wanted that was hopelessly out of touch (insult the user). Then we were told that Folderview was an exactly identical feature (lie to the user). It wasn't until very recently that we were told that it would be arriving in 4.2. Now that the issue has finally been addressed, the criticism has disappeared. Some of the earlier 4.0.0 criticisms were promptly addressed, and they went away.

Janne wrote:Criticism is fine. Whining and trolling is not.

Oh, stop whining! Making a fundamental change to the desktop is inevitably painful for a whole lot of people, and inevitably you're going to have to deal with some of that. People who are in real pain are really painful to listen to. I personally never whined; I screamed bloody murder!

The KDE team could have done a better job of educating the public. But it wouldn't have made that much of a difference. What they could scarcely have done better is the software, and it's the software that counts. In the end, it is the software that will win over those who can be won over. And you can count me among those people.

Incidentally, since I started this thread, due to a hardware problem, I am down to my last, **** computer. So I'm actually running Vector Linux standard now, my favorite distro for low-end boxes. That means some KDE3 apps on XFCE. So when I say I switched, it's a state of mind that I am speaking of. I'm planning my next computer. I favor used hardware, so I'm hoping for a P4. When I get something with a ghz or two under the hood, it'll be KDE4, or sometimes KDE 4 applications running on fluxbox.

So I still haven't gotten around to discussing why I switched.

1. Konqueror is back, better than ever