Plasma has a lot of potential, huge potential to make the desktop more functional. However, it's not there yet. Sure, you can set it up to be the ultimate task organizer, with activities containing folderviews and icons, as well as tools specific to the current task. However, in trying to balance between the "new ideal" and the "old way", setting it up this way is difficult at best, not something that the average user would be willing to do. For this reason, two opt-outs have been made. One, the folderview desktop, completely reverts back to the system that plasma is trying to replace. The other, the "Desktop folder" folderview in a standard activity, is even less usable than the first, as people then have several separate "features" all squished together into one small box.

To solve this I propose the creation of a symbolic desktop file structure. I think this is just a natural extension of the system already in place.

Desktop Structure
The desktop folder would be divided into the different activities that the user has. Each activity would the be divided into the different folder views it contains. Icons created in an activity would be added to that activity's folder, and each folder view added would have its contents added symbolically inside a folder named after the folder view.

When people drag files to the desktop, they would be given the option to either treat it like a regular desktop (discouraged) or to deal with it in an organized way, such as creating a folder view for it, or an icon, or a link in a folder view. This would then add the file symbolically in the appropriate location in the desktop structure.

They could also drag a folder to the desktop, which would result in something much like what we already have, except that a symbolic link to the folder would be added to the desktop file structure as well.

Folder View Organization
A folder view could still be tied to a physical folder, but it should also be able to point to a location in the symbolic desktop file system. Such a folder view would be able to "contain" files from various different folders across the system. A user could drag a file into such a folder view and have it symbolically placed there, but still leave it in its regular folder hierarchy, if they want.

Desktop Icons
Desktop icons, or launchers, have been a desktop staple for a long time. These are available in plasma, but they aren't quite as useful as they could be. People expect to be able to see desktop icons in their file structure. For this reason, these could also be included in the symbolic desktop structure, like the folder views.

Downloads
A lot of people are used to downloading to their desktop. For this, a Downloads folder view can be created. However, many programs, like firefox, download files, by default, to the desktop. Downloads to the Desktop folder could be intercepted and moved into the downloads folder. But people still expect to find downloads on their desktop. A downloads folder view could still be created and stored symbolically in the desktop file structure

Desktop Folder View
Whether it be a normal folder view, or the folder view desktop, the contents of this would have to be set up to reflect peoples expectations. By default, any folder view pointing to the Desktop folder could show a flattened view of everything in the desktop file structure. The user, seeing this clutter, could then choose to hide parts of the structure, to the point that the "old" desktop simply becomes another part of the desktop file structure.

Usability
Again, when a person tries to use their desktop as an "old" desktop, they should be given the option to use it that way, or to set up a plasma oriented system with icons or folder views. In this way, most of the work would be done for the user, with the user only having to use the desktop the way they are used to in order to initiate the process. This should work even if the widgets are locked when the user tries to use the desktop.

Dolphin
Dolphin would, of course have to be set up to allow various different viewing options of the contents of the desktop structure, such as folders for activities and subfolders for folder views, or a flattened view that (optionally) categorizes everything by activity and folder view.

Other file managers
When another file manager accesses the desktop folder, it could see the same thing as a Desktop folder view gets. Conversely, when plasma finds a Desktop created in an uncategorized way, it should create an organized desktop, with launchers shown as Icon widgets and the files shown in a folder view. The user could then organize their Desktop structure with activities and folder views. Creating a folder view should be as simple as dragging files off the original folder view and selecting "place in: new folder view" (or something) Then, the icons and folder views could be dragged to different activities using the ZUI. The standard "Desktop" folder view would be unaffected, so on switching back to another DE, the desktop is just how they left it.

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If you made it through all this, I congratulate you. What do you think? How could this be implemented to allow the "old fashioned way" but encourage doing it the plasma way? I know this is the wrong time in the dev cycle to put this forward, but I think its important to consider how to make it easy to set up a plasma desktop now, especially as usability bugs are showing up that are almost impossible to resolve without making drastic changes.

SteveMcQwark wrote:
Desktop Structure
The desktop folder would be divided into the different activities that the user has. Each activity would the be divided into the different folder views it contains. Icons created in an activity would be added to that activity's folder, and each folder view added would have its contents added symbolically inside a folder named after the folder view.

I don't exactly get, why this really needs to be the Desktop folder. Anyway, you can already have that. Though you can do it by hand, add the subfolders in Dolphin, make different folderview activities and let them point to this subdirs.

Of course, a configuration in the desktop settings dialog is missing for something like that. But it is already possible.

When people drag files to the desktop, they would be given the option to either treat it like a regular desktop (discouraged) or to deal with it in an organized way, such as creating a folder view for it, or an icon, or a link in a folder view. This would then add the file symbolically in the appropriate location in the desktop structure.

They could also drag a folder to the desktop, which would result in something much like what we already have, except that a symbolic link to the folder would be added to the desktop file structure as well.

Dragging a file to a folderview (activity or not) already makes a link/copy/move in the filesystem.
Dragging a file to the "new" desktop makes a virtual link. Way cooler, drag a picture and see what happens

Folder View Organization
A folder view could still be tied to a physical folder, but it should also be able to point to a location in the symbolic desktop file system. Such a folder view would be able to "contain" files from various different folders across the system. A user could drag a file into such a folder view and have it symbolically placed there, but still leave it in its regular folder hierarchy, if they want.

As already said, we have that. Either the virtual links in a config file (seen as icons) or the shown files from filesystem in a folderview.
And you can have both worlds in 1 Desktop.

Desktop Icons
Desktop icons, or launchers, have been a desktop staple for a long time. These are available in plasma, but they aren't quite as useful as they could be. People expect to be able to see desktop icons in their file structure. For this reason, these could also be included in the symbolic desktop structure, like the folder views.

Downloads
A lot of people are used to downloading to their desktop. For this, a Downloads folder view can be created. However, many programs, like firefox, download files, by default, to the desktop. Downloads to the Desktop folder could be intercepted and moved into the downloads folder. But people still expect to find downloads on their desktop. A downloads folder view could still be created and stored symbolically in the desktop file structure

See above, it is only a matter of getting used to it (or maybe some visual configuration options missing). Just add a folderview besides the virtual icons on the desktop and let point it to whereever you want.
Oh, and have you already seen the folderview plasmoid in Beta? It improved a lot.

Desktop Folder View
Whether it be a normal folder view, or the folder view desktop, the contents of this would have to be set up to reflect peoples expectations. By default, any folder view pointing to the Desktop folder could show a flattened view of everything in the desktop file structure. The user, seeing this clutter, could then choose to hide parts of the structure, to the point that the "old" desktop simply becomes another part of the desktop file structure.

Usability
Again, when a person tries to use their desktop as an "old" desktop, they should be given the option to use it that way, or to set up a plasma oriented system with icons or folder views. In this way, most of the work would be done for the user, with the user only having to use the desktop the way they are used to in order to initiate the process. This should work even if the widgets are locked when the user tries to use the desktop.

Dolphin
Dolphin would, of course have to be set up to allow various different viewing options of the contents of the desktop structure, such as folders for activities and subfolders for folder views, or a flattened view that (optionally) categorizes everything by activity and folder view.

Other file managers
When another file manager accesses the desktop folder, it could see the same thing as a Desktop folder view gets. Conversely, when plasma finds a Desktop created in an uncategorized way, it should create an organized desktop, with launchers shown as Icon widgets and the files shown in a folder view. The user could then organize their Desktop structure with activities and folder views. Creating a folder view should be as simple as dragging files off the original folder view and selecting "place in: new folder view" (or something) Then, the icons and folder views could be dragged to different activities using the ZUI. The standard "Desktop" folder view would be unaffected, so on switching back to another DE, the desktop is just how they left it.

[align=center]***[/align]

If you made it through all this, I congratulate you. What do you think? How could this be implemented to allow the "old fashioned way" but encourage doing it the plasma way? I know this is the wrong time in the dev cycle to put this forward, but I think its important to consider how to make it easy to set up a plasma desktop now, especially as usability bugs are showing up that are almost impossible to resolve without making drastic changes.

I really think most of this is already implemented or can be seen in the upcoming 4.2 release. Other than that, with just some time trying things out you will find even nicer ways of handling things.

But yes, some config options are still missing, but that doesn't mean they won't ever come in.

And yes, somehow i get the feeling that such threads always raise short before a new release

But thanks for sharing. Maybe you will be much happier with 4.2.

I already am much happier with 4.2 I'm use it on and off. I know that most of this is already available. My main points are as follows:

1. Migration: Plasma should be able to turn Jo Schmo's Desktop folder into a functional plasma desktop. Also, Jo Shmo's other DE should be able to display his desktop, even though it doesn't have the organizational features.
2. Organization: Yes, you could organize your files yourself to reflect your desktop, but this is not always feasible or useful. Sometimes people want to leave they're files in their file structure, but be able to access them in a separate system organized by task rather than by type. Thats why albums are popping up left right and centre in other DE's. I'm proposing that Plasma could manage such a system, and display the results as the plasma desktop.
3. Accessibility: Yes, you could do all this yourself, but very few people would bother. I'm proposing that dragging a file to the desktop could create a new folderview containing it, as well as an "album", if you will, for that folder view, while leaving the file in place. Also, the current model lets programs like Firefox hide downloads in an unused Desktop folder. I'm proposing forcing them into the Downloads folder, then incorporating that into the Plasma Desktop hierarchy
4. Standards compliance: The only reason I propose housing such a structure in the Desktop folder is because this essentially represents the desktop, and a Desktop folder is required by certain standards.

I know this isn't a miracle perfect solution, and I know that more and more features are coming down the pipe. But right now I'm seeing plasma devs struggling with interoperability with other DE's and with software designed around other DE's. And I'm finding folder views not living up to my expectations (though they are much improved in 4.2) While all this is possible in 4.2, it requires a whole lot of tinkering around in your file manager just to set up your desktop. I hope I've made myself clearer this time, and am looking forward to suggestions of how to better do what I'm looking for.

This seems like a twofolded sword.

First, let the old desktop come back in again and let it being manageable like it was.

Second, advance the old concept of the desktop, change from type management to task management.

For the first part. Starting a new installation is basically up to the distributors, how they present the default desktop to you. Of course there is room for discussion how a default desktop should look like. But is adding a folderview plasmoid/activity not already made very easy? Just curious.
Or would you like more docs on that topic?

Second, extending to task management. Just to mention that, with nepomuk in upcoming KDE it will be waaay easier to add even more capabilities to the desktop.
Suppose 2 folderviews on the same desktop (or two different, doesn't matter). Now number one points to Desktop. the second one doesn't point to a directory at all, the link is nepomuksearch:/tag:iwantitsorted
And if you have tagged your files good enough with iwantitsorted you will be presented with a virtual overview of all files belonging to that task, no matter where they really are.
Another addition to that, you can filter out every sort of file from being displayed in folderview.
I can't even think of all the possibilities that brings to us...

But i have the feeling this all comes down to give more docs or resources on how to do things and a discussion about the defaults a desktop should fullfill, right?

This is what it boils down to. Documentation. Where it stands right, now, with all plasmas strengths, in order to set up the desktop, a user has to use documentation and resources that don't even exist yet. This is asking a lot.

The desktop structure thing is redundant and naive. Nepomuk is working to provide the flexible infrastructure needed to set up a semantic desktop, both as a whole, and in the plasma desktop. (we need to find new jargon, cuz this gets confusing) which is really what I'm talking about. However, the rest of KDE hasn't implemented Nepomuk-KDE yet. Dolphin is starting to, but the mechanism isn't quite clear yet.

What I think needs to happen after unfreeze, is trying to implement the semantic desktop that is being embraced in other ways the activities in plasma, so that, as soon as someone tries to use their desktop the old fashioned way, they get directed towards a more functional model, without having to meddle with filters and folders, or know what nepomuk is.

I started my desktop experience way back with OS/2. The desktop was a directory, just like everything else. It was essentially a file manager displaying your home directory full screen. But it also had workspaces, which were sort of a task oriented view. Task oriented folderviews would be awesome.

Folderview as containment is okay, but imagine Dolphin (or Konqueror) as containment! Imagine folderviews that could be collapsed into icons. Etc, etc.

Personally the way I organise things are that my /home/user folder has only the /Desktop folder and a documents/ folder as well as the rest of the .config/ folders. The /Desktop folder is for very temporary stuff, for example, if I need to quickly download an image to play with it that I know I'm going to delete in a short while. This is quite similar to how we work on a desk anyways (the main part of our desk) the stuff there constantly changes depending on what we're working on. The documents/ folder then contains the rest of the "organised" folders such as Images/ School/ pendingdeletion/ tobesorted/ Torrents/ Music/ Video/ Projects/ (a big part of my life, which again has a lot of subdirs), and so on.

So if I use a folderview, it'll either be my /Desktop folder (as per default) or my /documents folder as a shortcut.

This information completely guides the user regarding the plasma desktop, it includes all the needed information about it. It is really helpful for the users to get the complete idea.