I love KDE 4.2 (Beta 2) It just looks cool! That being said, I'm one of those people who upgraded their windows installation to the Win7 Beta (I never really use it, so I had nothing to lose). Despair! Despite KDE 4.2's awesomeness, there are just some things that just felt cleaner in the new Windows. I know its not really a fair comparison, (donations and funding vs. billions of dollars, drivers support, maturity, salaries, malleable vs. static) but I can't help feeling that KDE 4 really has some catching up to do in some key areas before Win7 is released.

*WARNING* This post looks pretty one sided. This is for three reasons: I just tried Win7, so I'm somewhat enamored; I haven't been able to go back to KDE yet, because I have to reinstall grub; You should all be familiar with KDE's many virtues, so pointing them out would seem redundant. Keep in mind: I love KDE 4!

• Responsiveness: One of the main reasons I my Vista installation never got used is because it is a bit sluggish, not extremely, and my hardware more than supports the graphics. Linux, I have found, is generally more responsive. But lo and behold, Win7 is noticeably more reactive than KDE has been. This may be in part due to my particular linux (*buntu 8.10) but not all.
  
• System tray: I know that the KDE 4 systray is being held back by standards and software beyond its control. However, it still seems sluggish, and its method of hiding icons seems immature in comparison. By default, only the four main system icons are showing (and they aren't loud) and the rest are only a click away, in a fast loading popup. Also, it is managed by drag and drop. It also doesn't flicker.
  
• Taskbar: The taskbar isn't everyones favorite idea (most are just scared cuz its different) but I haven't had any trouble so far recognizing finding the right window, and even with the text turned on, I can fit several (more than three) items on the bar before things start to squish each other. True, this is partly because the text is cut off, but even without the text, the taskbar is quite navigable.
  
• Peek integration: One of the really nice things about KDE 4 is its peek function. However, it isn't used, except in the awkwardly placed alt-tab menu. Win7 has some easy to use integration of this (stolen) feature.
  
• Libraries: These can be handy, but Nepomuk is much more promising. However, at the moment, Nepomuk is hardly used. So yeah...
  
• CHROME!: Okay, my intermittent love affair with the Google browser isn't really valid here, but still. Oh well, Google's aiming for a June release of the Linux one...
  
• Graphical effects: These are used nicely in Win7 as a way of showing the environment responding to you. Its feels good and helps you know your mouse is where you think it is. And it doesn't lag. KDE 4 has some nice graphical effects too, but they just seem (slightly) less responsive and omnipresent.
  
• Window snapping: Okay, when I read about it, I was iffy. I often put my windows at the top or the sides, and I don't usually want something to happen to them. However, these features are completely dependent on the pointer, not the window, so the issue is non-existent.
  
• Layout: This is one of the problems the plasma people have been working on, but never seem to get quite right. It is quit common for something to go out of alignment. Everything in the win7 interface is in the right place (I think).

Basically, I was struck by how smooth the whole thing feels, in spite of myself (I'm usually quite anti-Microsoft). Hopefully, when 4.2 is officially released, (I'll try the RC asap) and then when 4.3 is released, I will notice some improvements that match, or, hopefully, exceed the clean feel of the Win7 interface, before Win7 is released. Also, this is all surface level, whereas KDE 4 has been mainly about revamping the underpinnings, so this is again biased. Cheers! I hope to hear people pointing out the advantages of KDE over Win7, because I need to be counter-brainwashed :P

KDE 4.2 RC is now out, please compare.

• Responsiveness: I do not suffer laggy effects from my 4.2 install ( apart from when the hard drive light is firmly on... debug builds are a huge performance sink )
• System tray: Maybe we will get a real one ( scalable icons, not requiring XEmbed, desktop integrated context menus + tooltips ) which will allow these kind of things to happen. One day.
• Taskbar: You mean the area where open windows are placed? I have 6 open now, and can see them all without any real squishing - and the text is gracefully faded out when it is too long.
• Peek Integration: in KDE4 if you hover over a windows item in the taskbar with 3D effects enabled, the apps icon is replaced with a preview of the window.

Did we mention all the things Plasma lets you do like having a Desktop Globe ( Marble ) or Mandelbrot fractals as your desktop background? with whichever containment ( including Folderview ) you want, and further Plasmoids ( weather, etc. ) along with multiple Panels, and changable activities for quick workflows that can be tied to virtual desktops?

We need to keep in mind that by the time Windows 7 is released, we will be running KDE 4.4 or 4.5 ....

we also need to keep in mind that this is the first beta of win7 (something like kde4.0.1 ?!) and its already that good ^^

waldelf wrote:we also need to keep in mind that this is the first beta of win7 (something like kde4.0.1 ?!) and its already that good ^^

Well, KDE4 was written from scratch (more or less), whereas Windows 7 is mostly based on Vista. So most of the hard work was done in Vista, while 7 is just refining and tweaking the work that was done in Vista. So, in many ways: Windows Vista is KDE4.0.

waldelf wrote:we also need to keep in mind that this is the first beta of win7 (something like kde4.0.1 ?!) and its already that good ^^

I read somewhere that no more features will be implemented in win7 - so it won't get much better...

And who knows what those 10,000 programmers are doing...

Well as everything is decided by a committee at Microsoft, my guess is that all 10.000 are working on implementing a sixteen button method of powering off a computer.

I base my completely non-biased opinion on this article from 2006, of course. :shade:

Another great read, regarding programming at Microsoft.

hard to say which is better Win7 or KDE4.2 as one has one feature that the other hasn't...
But I do think that Win7 is to windows what KDE4.2 is to KDE...

bcooksley wrote:KDE 4.2 RC is now out, please compare.

The RC does have much less lag, but some animations still aren't as smooth (mostly with Firefox, though, which, for KDE, is excusable). By peek I mean the transparent windows that you get when you click on the Alt-tab window, which is virtually inaccessible because it requires both the mouse and keyboard, not to mention that the alt-tabber is largely in the way. I'm also looking forward to a real systray, and thank you for pointing out a few of KDE 4's virtues Always good to be reminded.

Janne wrote:We need to keep in mind that by the time Windows 7 is released, we will be running KDE 4.4 or 4.5 ....

It seems more likely to be 4.3, at the moment :P Though, looking at the plasma-devel list, I see some exciting new features that are being explored

mensch wrote:Well as everything is decided by a committee at Microsoft, my guess is that all 10.000 are working on implementing a sixteen button method of powering off a computer.

I base my completely non-biased opinion on this article from 2006, of course. :shade:

Another great read, regarding programming at Microsoft.

This was enlightening, I couldn't understand how Vista was so unpolished after so much time, yet in a much shorter time, Win7 is such a contrast...

Primoz wrote:hard to say which is better Win7 or KDE4.2 as one has one feature that the other hasn't...
But I do think that Win7 is to windows what KDE4.2 is to KDE...

I'll hold my vote until they both are released, but I'm rooting for 4.2 A few things need some work, but overall its a really good DE :P If only Win7 didn't seem so polished! The worst glitch I've run into so far is that some custom windows cover the window previews... Otherwise, KDE 4.2's features and flexibility would win out by a long shot. Though, as shown in one of the links mensch provided, there is such thing as too much choice...

i just tried win7.. there is one thing i have to say.. it feels more responsive than kde..
most of all the shutdown is very very fast.. it feels like a major kill all.. anyway

they say win7 has borrowed ideas from mac (and mostly kde) - thats right.. but they didn't make a good job IMHO..
the startmenu is somehow a good copy of kicker .. but when it comes to "all applications" it becomes confusing und cluttered..

the windowsexplorer is in no way comparable to dolphin as dolphin is a very good, very easy and very usable tool for filemanagment.. WE isn't - they try to make it look slim and thight but it looks like incoherent things lying around in a window..

worst of all is the "control panel" aka "system settings" -- there are way to many possibilities to navigate - what about the "address bar" and all the small triangles to navigate back to other locations.. then the back and forward buttons .. suddenly there comes a side bar with all the locations.. maybe its meant to give every user his own navigation.. but i think the way "system settings" handles the navigation is much better..

the shutdown button is "nice" ^^ one click and windows is gone.. a BIG button and no confirmation

and has anyone an idea why i would like to have my os to put all my media in libraries despite my own folderstructure..

i vote for 4.2 and when the time of win7 comes for 4.3 (or maybe 4.4.. one never knows)

@Waldelf
Concerning shutdown, that has nothing to do with KDE, but with your distro mostly. For example, my Debian shuts in 5-9 secs.

As for the rest of the thread, I can not really comment since I haven't used Win since Win 98. I can just say that it was usual back then that betas are faster than the final product (contrary to the expectations), and especially because you never clog the beta with an enormous amounts of run-on-system-startup software.

And, as far as the screenshots I've seen are concerned, I can only quote the queen Victoria "We are not amused". The only interesting thing I've seen is showing multiple windows in the taskbar's tooltip when the windows are grouped (if you like grouping them at all)

SteveMcQwark wrote:

Janne wrote:We need to keep in mind that by the time Windows 7 is released, we will be running KDE 4.4 or 4.5 ....

It seems more likely to be 4.3, at the moment :P

IIRC, Windows 7 is slated to be released in 2010. KDE 4.4 will be repeased in early 2010, 4.5 will be released in middle of 2010. So it seems that either of thise will compete with Windows 7.

I also played arround with Windows 7 today.

And well for it being a beta I am quite impressed. It is more stable than any KDE 4 version I haved used. And well, it seems way more polished (just play arround with plasma, the extenders, animations you often see some glitches).

I know, that is an unfair competition. Thousands of full time devs at MS vs. a few hundred active developers (only some working full time) on the KDE side.

But: I think the panel in KDE 4 looks better. And there are lots of things to like about KDE. And most important: It is a free community based project. You can become part of it, get in direct contact of the developers. Bring your ideas into it.

Or stolen from Wade's great images: "KDE is ours".

If you do not know them yet there: http://picasaweb.google.com/wadejolson/ ... EMeanToYou

I remember a few years back when the world was waiting with bated breath for "Longhorn" (now known as Vista) to be released to the world, and everyone was talking about how it would blow away Linux and OSX, etc.

At that time, a friend of mine said something that I think reflects a wise attitude: "I am excited about what Longhorn will have, because I know within a year Linux will have all of it and more."

I've seen some things in windows 7 beta that are cool, but I think Linux/KDE could add most of it easily. The cool thing about KDE is, once basic framework is solid, it's just a matter of writing plasmoids to turn the desktop into anything we want it to be.

mensch wrote:I base my completely non-biased opinion on this article from 2006, of course. :shade:

Well if Joel had got his way, I'd be very frustrated. Big fast Shutdown icon, does what he says, and it's configurable to Sleep I think.

Very often I want to reboot, and until PCs are psychic I can't see how they will know whether to power off, or simply sleep and hibernate.

Stuff like Joel's suggestion comes over as patronising, and confusing to me. Configuring network was a nightmare with Vista, involving a lot of googling, and confusing circles and death spirals through tools and menus. All due to that type of approach, which caters only to typical needs. In Linux it's never been a problem, because I could simply configure the settings in a form.