Primoz wrote:
Don't be disappointed just because it's not same as the previous version of KDE.

The problem is that it's not as good as the previous version of KDE, from the point of view of getting work done. I keep making a fool of myself because I desperately want to love KDE4. I spent a hundred dollars on a new video card so I could learn to love KDE4, more than i spent on my entire computer, (which was purchased at a police auction, and was a fantastic deal). I've spent at least a thousand hours obsessively trying to make it work for me. And I keep going back to KDE3.5, and every time I do, it's like a huge weight lifts, and KDE3 seems more ingenious and intuitive than ever. The irony is that before KDE4 came along, I wasn't a full-fledged KDE user. I used fluxbox, with KDE applications. KDE4 made me a KDE3 fanatic.

How typical am I? I see anecdotal reason to wonder . It seems like everyone I encounter online loves KDE4, and yet everyone I encounter in real life-- pretty much my entire LUG-- hates it. I saw one of those "which Desktop environment do you prefer" polls on a website. KDE got about 20 per cent. It's not exactly scientific, but that's a perennial website poll question. I've seen it come up a dozen times, and KDE never scored so low before. The question that needs to be asked is not whether KDE4 is a failure from the end user's point of view, but rather: if it was, would the KDE community be capable of receiving the message?

Make no mistake. As far as I have light to see, KDE4 is the most ambitious and technically accomplished FOSS project ever, and even if end users reject it in large numbers, it's not a failure, any more than the Apollo project was a failure because everyone didn't go to the moon. Sooner or later, this work is going to benefit all of us, in a very real and a lasting way. However, my contribution is going to have to be to work for the preservation of KDE3.

blackbelt_jones wrote:...
I spent a hundred dollars on a new video card so I could learn to love KDE4, more than i spent on my entire computer, (which was purchased at a police auction, and was a fantastic deal). I've spent at least a thousand hours obsessively trying to make it work for me.
...

It was bad idea. I'm using free softwares because I can get the same performance(or even better) like with non-free softwares. Do not spend money while you still have alternative solutions. For many years KDE was my favorite DE. The 2 and 3 version were way better then any other DE in the open-source world.
I was laughed out many times the first conference about Windows 98 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGLhuF3L48U - with the BSOD on plug 'n play.
When I made the first presentation about KDE for my fanatic windows friends the compositing crashed. And happened so many times after the updates, also - conclusion: no one new Linux users.
Imagine: openSUSE 11.0 presentation. I opened my laptop inserted any peripherals, bluetooth, usb, printer, anything it's just get loaded without any problem. And worked! That was the most kickass KDE, the 3rd version.
Actually I have a KDE4 installation. On every week I'm updating it and reporting the new bugs, or posting them here. I know that this version can't be popular like the 3 version was, and that the number of KDE users is growing only because the free software usage is growing too.
I hope that the developers are trying to focus to the real problems of KDE and they want to perfects this totally new conception about the desktop. This is the only way to keep this project alive and to respect the meaning of the word KDE.

akoskm wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:...
I spent a hundred dollars on a new video card so I could learn to love KDE4, more than i spent on my entire computer, (which was purchased at a police auction, and was a fantastic deal). I've spent at least a thousand hours obsessively trying to make it work for me.
...

It was bad idea. I'm using free softwares because I can get the same performance(or even better) like with non-free softwares. Do not spend money while you still have alternative solutions.

Hey, nobody loves cheap more than I do! I felt justified because my police auction computer was such a great buy, thanks to free software. Police regulations require that the hard drives be wiped, so there's no OS. This makes them much less useful to the Windows-afflicted and drives down the auction price. So along comes blackbelt_jones to pick up a Dell Optiplex (2.4 ghz, 512 MB RAM) for 38 dollars, plus 20 dollars shipping. I add more RAM, install Debian off the internet... and 80 bucks for an Nvidia card doesn't seem so terrible.

Good deal indeed. However, I got myself the very cheapest ATI card on the market, an X1550 - and it works just fine But I spent €300 on a new mobo, RAM and CPU

blackbelt_jones wrote:

Primoz wrote:
Don't be disappointed just because it's not same as the previous version of KDE.

I have no idea where I wrote that, but I "kind of" take it back. It seems that you like KDE3 better, and I accept that and the best thing with FOSS is that old versions don't die like in Windows, they can be taken upon by users which can maintain it...
I guess it's different from user to user, I "fell in love" with KDE4 the moment I saw it in KDE4.0 and we all know how many users reacted at KDE4.0.
And since then I really don't miss KDE3 much. I agree that much of usability of KDE3 might be lost, but it's slowly coming back. KDE4.3 will get the "automount-autorun" option, so you'll be able to choose what action you want to do with inserted media...
But I can see where things are still behind KDE3.
I would also emphasise that KDE4 or any other KDE will not be KDE3. This might be forgotten by some...

Primoz wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:

Primoz wrote:
Don't be disappointed just because it's not same as the previous version of KDE.

I have no idea where I wrote that, but I "kind of" take it back. It seems that you like KDE3 better, and I accept that and the best thing with FOSS is that old versions don't die like in Windows, they can be taken upon by users which can maintain it...

True dat. There's very little about KDE3 that needs to change, so why shouldn't the developers head in a bold new direction? This is not a commercial project, and even if they leave some users behind, they ought to be free to follow their muse, particularly with KDE3 an established work. KDE3 doesn't need development; it needs maintainance. Developers want to develop, and it's not "free as in freedom" to confine them to another few years of security updates, bug fixes, and nothing more.

Just this minute I happened to come upon some of my KDE4 screenshots, and they're so beautiful! Should I deny that to those who favor it, even if I could?

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh43 ... shot12.png

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh43 ... shot23.png

I can't say that I myself am finished with KDE4, only that for the foreseeable future, I'm not going to sacrifice KDE3 for its sake. I might grab a live CD for those times when my Desktop wants to slip into something a little more spectacular, or I might even install a separate OS just for the sake of KDE4. It's fun. It's awesome. It's stunningly beautiful. I think it's great for when you want to run your desktop as an information/media display instead of a workspace.

I would only argue against the sense of inevitability ("some of you may prefer KDE3 for now") and for the support and nurture of a viable KDE3 community within the larger KDE community. Also, I wonder what it would take for KDE3 and KDE4 to be more independent of each other, so that they could easily run side by side.

When I read the first blogs from Aaron and Lubos a long time ago in my mind a clear image took shape.
When I installed kde 4.2.1 that image become real.
When I installed openSUSE 11.1 I installed kde 4.1.3 AND kde 3.5.10 (just in case)... but used version 3 only once: to upgrade 4.1.3 to 4.2.1.
Yes, there are missing points.
Yes, there are rough corners also.
So?
I can't wait for openSUSE 11.2 with kde 4.3.x...

Support by Trolltech for Qt3 has long been discontinued, therefore the distributions want to get rid of it and most have already stopped shipping KDE3. But in the opinion of many, myself included, KDE3 is still the best existing desktop environment on the Linux desktop, better than GNOME, Xfce and LXDE. KDE4 is not a competitor, it is ugly, slow, lacks functionality and usability. The competitiveness of the Linux desktop as a whole is hurt by the demise of KDE. And the usage of the Qt toolkit on Linux in comparison to Gtk suffers, too, in spite of the now perfect licensing situation.

if qt 3 is existing and rock stable i dont see a need in further 'support'

RGB wrote:When I read the first blogs from Aaron and Lubos a long time ago in my mind a clear image took shape.
When I installed kde 4.2.1 that image become real.
When I installed openSUSE 11.1 I installed kde 4.1.3 AND kde 3.5.10 (just in case)... but used version 3 only once: to upgrade 4.1.3 to 4.2.1.
Yes, there are missing points.
Yes, there are rough corners also.
So?

So... the fact that you like it impresses me exactly as much as the fact that I don't like it impresses you. Did you consider switching to KDE3 when you found out that blackbelt_jones prefers it? Not even for a minute? I didn't think so.

We need to stop debating KDE4, if that's possible. It's here to stay, I intend to get used to it as the KDE flagship distro. The issue is the future of KDE3. I'm not a developer, and I don't really know what Qt3 is, except in vague generalities, but if QT3 support ended a long time ago, and millions are still using KDE3 (and Opera), how much does support for QT3 really matter? I get that there aren't going to be any new features, but so far no one has come with a new feature that I really want or need.

blackbelt_jones wrote:We need to stop debating KDE4, if that's possible.

It is possible. I'm talking for myself (with all those "when I..."), not debating: I was a happy kde 3 user (and even kde 2 and kde 1: I'm using kde since 2000) and now I'm a happy kde 4 user.
I am.
In my previous message there is no comparison between kde 3 and kde 4. I like kde 4 more despite its problems: those problems do not affect my work and I'm confident that those problems will be solved soon.
Do you remember kde 2.0? Do you remember kde 3.0?
I do. I'm quite happy with kde 4 development.
I'm not debating, just facing my facts.
Your facts are different, it seems.

That part wasn't really directed at you, or at anyone in particular. These discussions always focus on the pros and cons of KDE4. It's just a natural tendancy that we all have, me included, and I think that's a distraction. K4's future isn't in doubt, therefore it's not the issue, the issue is the future of K3.

I don't think of KDE4 as "having problems". I think of it as fundamtentally inappropriate as a workstation, though it's a brilliant concept as a kind of semi-interactive media/display. I really want to be able to use KDE4 as a kind of wall clock/newsticker, to monitor my email and my twitter account and play internet radio while I putter around the house. But to actually sit down to it is maddeningly distracting for me, and I say this after hours and hours and hours and hours. I can't stop fiddling with it. The real problem isn't KDE at all. It's me, and my human brain.

And see, now I'm discussing KDE4. The truth is I like and admire KDE4, and I really want to use KDE4 for some things, but I don't want to give up KDE3. Since I started this thread, I've been thinking that my solution may be to adopt some other DE as a workstation, and keep KDE4 for these specialized uses. I'm starting to look at XFCE. There's no fluid drag-and-drop for XFCE, and that's a big sacrifice, but it's got a great interface for setting up easy custom keyboard shortcuts, and an awesome custom app launcher that works from the panel and is just as configurable as fluxbox with better usability. (Setup is a little more involved).

And of course, there's Gnome. Easy and natural as can be, but not very flexible.

So yeah, that's probably what I'm going to try next. XFCE and KDE as a kind of a tag team.

blackbelt_jones wrote:The real problem isn't KDE at all. It's me, and my human brain.

If KDE 4 isn't working with your human brain, then surely that is the problem. What other type of brain is a desktop environment expected to work with? As far as I'm concerned, everything on my computer should be moulded and designed to work with the human mind and body. If things are the other way around, then the computer and/or application is not designed properly. The flaw may lie with me, but my tools should be designed to work around those flaws and fit with my follies.

RGB wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:We need to stop debating KDE4, if that's possible.

It is possible. I'm talking for myself (with all those "when I..."), not debating: I was a happy kde 3 user (and even kde 2 and kde 1: I'm using kde since 2000) and now I'm a happy kde 4 user.
I am.
In my previous message there is no comparison between kde 3 and kde 4. I like kde 4 more despite its problems: those problems do not affect my work and I'm confident that those problems will be solved soon.
Do you remember kde 2.0? Do you remember kde 3.0?
I do. I'm quite happy with kde 4 development.
I'm not debating, just facing my facts.
Your facts are different, it seems.

I've been around long enough to remember KDE2. The truth is, I'm completely happy with KDE development, and I've said so many times, including at the top of the thread. KDE 3 doesn't need developers any more; it needs maintainers, and developers need a challenge. Honestly, if the developers were somehow forced to keep working on KDE3, they'd wind up ruining it. In my opinion, KDE made a lot of serious PR mistakes around KDE4, but KDE4 itself was exactly the right thing to do.

But many of the distros, beginning with Kubuntu, have forced KDE4 on users who don't want it. This is contrary to the natural life cycle that Aaron Siego spoke of so eloquently ("for free software, to be used is to be maintained"). I'll confess that I still hold a grudge about Kubuntu, who insisted they didn't have the manpower to mainatin KDE3 at all when smaller distros somehow managed, and some guy managed to get a KDE3 repository up and running all by himself within a couple of days of the release of Intrepid Ibex.

Serenity wrote:

blackbelt_jones wrote:The real problem isn't KDE at all. It's me, and my human brain.

If KDE 4 isn't working with your human brain, then surely that is the problem. What other type of brain is a desktop environment expected to work with? As far as I'm concerned, everything on my computer should be moulded and designed to work with the human mind and body. If things are the other way around, then the computer and/or application is not designed properly. The flaw may lie with me, but my tools should be designed to work around those flaws and fit with my follies.

True... and anyway, I'm keeping the brain.

Last night, I built XFCE4.6.1 from source, with KDE3 tools in TWM. It was actually kind of fun, but I decided that I might want to try XFCE and KDE4 together, so I reinstalled Debian, installed KDE4 and tired to build XFCE again today with KDE4 tools, and it was so much more awkward and frustrating.

I can't take it any more. I've been obsessed with KDE4 for about a year. This is a very worthwhile project, but you don't push an immature default as the default, much less the only approved version because you're "confident that the problems will be worked out in time". You make it the default when the problems have been worked out. Someday the promise of KDE4 will be truly achieved-- and I promise you, there will legions of people who could not give a rat's ****. Now, when I login to KDE4, my stomach tightens and I start to feel a knot in my stomach. Just the sight of that cashew evokes a fight or flight response. I'm going to find me a nice XFCE distro with no KDE at all. Vector, or Zenwalk or something.

I believe that this will work itself out in time, but without me. And you're really not gonna miss my complaining, are you?