of_darkness wrote:
maby not perfect but alot esier

Hos is Kicker "easier" than the plasma-panel is? I mean, you just click on things, you don't really "use" it as such. You do add stuff to it and resize it, but you don't do that all the time. And I find the plasma-panel to be better there than the Kicker was.

and better then teh existing one wich could naturly be a complemnt to the systemsettings modual for configuring plasma panels.

Kicker would not really work. It would have to be ported to KDE4, and that's extra work that would be away from making the plasma-panel better. And if they didn't release the plasma-panel, but kept on working on it behind closed doors, it would slow down the developement. By releasing it and making sure it has lots of users, you expose bugs faster and you get more feature-requests. And that means faster developement.

all of them, i want to have a kde 4 purged of them as i personly just hate them.

So use some other theme. What's the problem here? You are not forced to use it, there are alternatives.

Should the core of KDE be changed based on what you like and dislike? And what about all those people who like Oxygen? Should your opinion overrule their opinion?

No i mean it is just a useles app that ahs been developed and is promted as somthing good and shiny thing in kde4. -just my personal oppnion.

And I find Dolphin to be a fine app. Konqueror was always a bit too complex and unwieldy to my taste.

it is a core part of kde4 and have depndencys to the rest of core kde4 thats why ppl are irritated about it.

I think people are irritated by it because it's different from what they used before.

and why have plain file mangers??

Why not? What should we be using instead? A single app that tries to do everything, but which doesn't really excel in any of them?[hr]

of_darkness wrote:
The ide behind why dolphin was created was to make a singel click app wich is madness, singel click is maddnes in my mind.

Dolphin work just as well with single or double-click. Besides, single-click is consistent. I mean, you launch things in the panel by single-clicking them. But suddenly if those things are in a filemanager-window, you would have to use double-click? It just makes no sense.

I see this ALL THE TIME in Windows. There's the quicklaunch-bar in the taskmanager, from which you can launch app with a single-click. And 90% of the time people double-click when they use the quicklaunch-bar, resulting in arror-messages and/or two apps being launched. They do that because everything else in the desktop uses doubleclick. They are utterly incapable of understanding why some icons needs single-click while other icons need doubleclick.

Same thing with toolbars and menus. Those use single-click. Why are things so inconsistent? I think it's great that KDE uses single-click everywhere. I would like to use this opportunity to thank KDE-developers for doing the right thing and making single-click the default. My mouse and I thank you,.

as it is being fased out in allmost all dists so.. and i think that in genreal all major desktops should behave in genreal the same, windows,kde,gnome etc.

If all desktops should look, behave and work the same way, what's the point of having different desktops? Where would innovation happen? Who wold be the authority that determines what behavior is acceptable and what is not? Microsoft? Apple?

of_darkness wrote:maby not perfect but alot esier

Janne wrote:Hos is Kicker "easier" than the plasma-panel is? I mean, you just click on things, you don't really "use" it as such. You do add stuff to it and resize it, but you don't do that all the time. And I find the plasma-panel to be better there than the Kicker was.

Hos?? if you use single line panel maybe but taskmanger,system tray and my fast aplication starter in kicker is using 4 and 3line hight.

and i want 2 be in control of the hight and placment.

of_darkness wrote:and better then teh existing one wich could naturly be a complemnt to the systemsettings modual for configuring plasma panels.

Janne wrote:Kicker would not really work. It would have to be ported to KDE4, and that's extra work that would be away from making the plasma-panel better. And if they didn't release the plasma-panel, but kept on working on it behind closed doors, it would slow down the developement. By releasing it and making sure it has lots of users, you expose bugs faster and you get more feature-requests. And that means faster developement.

Uhm i meant the visual desing implemntation of it and feal not code.
So strarting out from the desing of it and enhance it for plasma use.

of_darkness wrote:all of them, i want to have a kde 4 purged of them as i personly just hate them.

Janne wrote:So use some other theme. What's the problem here? You are not forced to use it, there are alternatives.

I se it when i install it and that enought. (yeah im obstinat,i know)

Janne wrote:Should the core of KDE be changed based on what you like and dislike? And what about all those people who like Oxygen? Should your opinion overrule their opinion?

My personal oppnion is that they must be crazy or brainwashed ore somthing alike that..
(disclamer:but i say again its my personal oppnion and im not poiting out an individiul person.)

of_darkness wrote:No i mean it is just a useles app that ahs been developed and is promted as somthing good and shiny thing in kde4. -just my personal oppnion.

Janne wrote:And I find Dolphin to be a fine app. Konqueror was always a bit too complex and unwieldy to my taste.

Uhm complex? nah i cant find it complex realy.. rather un complex..

if i had all services menus instaled from beging as part of it + all missing functionality thats in other filemangers than i could sign of on that statement..

of_darkness wrote:it is a core part of kde4 and have dependencys to the rest of core kde4 thats why ppl are irritated about it.

Janne wrote:I think people are irritated by it because it's different from what they used before.

Yeash maybe so, and i hate things thats 2 diffrent, and yeah i started out on windows but found it a bit limting to my vision of a desktop.

and i have experminted whit diffrent sizes on pnaels and diffreent plazments etc bout found that the one that i use now is perfect i usaly have alot of windows and programs open as my computer is on 24/7 and i usaly do several diffrent things on the same time..

of_darkness wrote:and why have plain file mangers??

Janne wrote:Why not? What should we be using instead? A single app that tries to do everything, but which doesn't really excel in any of them?

uhm konq is stil alot more powerfull then dolphin, the only missing feture is the strange sidebars thats only wasting space.

of_darkness wrote:
Hos?? if you use single line panel maybe but taskmanger,system tray and my fast aplication starter in kicker is using 4 and 3line hight.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you are saying here. KDE4 does not yet have multi-row taskbar, but it will appear in 4.2. Is that what you are talking about?

and i want 2 be in control of the hight and placment.

You can control the height and placement of the panel in KDE4.

Uhm i meant the visual desing implemntation of it and feal not code.

So, is your problem with the plasma-panel related to it's appearance or it's functionality? Appearance can be changed with themes, but changes in functionality requires new code.

I se it when i install it and that enought. (yeah im obstinat,i know)

You can change it in 20 seconds or so. And like it or not, KDE does need default artwork. It can't ship with no artwork at all. So you don't like the artwork it ships with. Fine, change it. Asking KDE-folks to make drastic changes to the desktop because you can't invest 20 seconds of your life to change the artwork is a bit too much IMO.

My personal oppnion is that they must be crazy or brainwashed ore somthing alike that..

That's hardly a constructive opinion. People have different wants and tastes. Just because they differ from yours, does not mean that they are "crazy" or "brainwashed".

Uhm complex? nah i cant find it complex realy.. rather un complex..

And I disagree with you.

uhm konq is stil alot more powerfull then dolphin, the only missing feture is the strange sidebars thats only wasting space.

It might be "powerful", but it's also complicated.

Very well put, Janne.

[quote=Janne]I see this ALL THE TIME in Windows. There's the quicklaunch-bar in the taskmanager, from which you can launch app with a single-click. And 90% of the time people double-click when they use the quicklaunch-bar, resulting in arror-messages and/or two apps being launched. They do that because everything else in the desktop uses doubleclick. They are utterly incapable of understanding why some icons needs single-click while other icons need doubleclick.[/quote]

+1.

of_darkness: I'm sorry if perhaps I'm just not understanding your English, but you don't seem to be making any new arguments, or much justification other than "No, I want you all to revert back to 3.5 because I hate changes, I don't like new stuff". Sorry if I seem to be mini-modding, but if you're not going to post anything constructive, please just don't post.

As for the rest of us, we've all answered what you've said, and we're now coming to the stage where we just repeat ourselves. In my opinion, this is adding fuel to a non-beneficial rant/flame thread. Please excuse myself from this thread.

of_darkness wrote:Hos?? if you use single line panel maybe but taskmanger,system tray and my fast aplication starter in kicker is using 4 and 3line hight.

Janne wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

Im talking about when you have several panels and want to easy and quickly change them, and describing my KIcker panel setup.

Janne wrote: KDE4 does not yet have multi-row taskbar, but it will appear in 4.2. Is that what you are talking about?

Oh thats news 2 me, but good news:) as the 3party one i so porly documented that i cant install it..

of_darkness wrote:and i want 2 be in control of the hight and placment.

Janne wrote:You can control the height and placement of the panel in KDE4.

Not in the same way as in kde3. where you could define the hight in pixels, that is what i mean 2 be in control. and the placement config is separated from the actual panel. mouch more precice and it is in the same place as the hight settings, and you can esely change from configuring one panel 2 another.

of_darkness wrote:Uhm i meant the visual desing implemntation of it and feal not code.

Janne wrote:So, is your problem with the plasma-panel related to it's appearance or it's functionality? Appearance can be changed with themes, but changes in functionality requires new code.

You prob. missunderstod me a bit there..

i want 2 have a controll center modual for plasma panel configuring as kicker had in kde3.

and i want 2 have hight,lenght and placement configuring options.

In short be able do do all that you can do from the exisintng plasma controllers.

of_darkness wrote:I se it when i install it and that enought. (yeah im obstinat,i know)

Janne wrote:You can change it in 20 seconds or so. And like it or not, KDE does need default artwork. It can't ship with no artwork at all. So you don't like the artwork it ships with. Fine, change it. Asking KDE-folks to make drastic changes to the desktop because you can't invest 20 seconds of your life to change the artwork is a bit too much IMO.

its my opnion yeah, but yeah i realice it a dead race but yeah i dont mind bangning my head in the wall:P

of_darkness wrote:My personal oppnion is that they must be crazy or brainwashed ore somthing alike that..

Janne wrote:That's hardly a constructive opinion. People have different wants and tastes. Just because they differ from yours, does not mean that they are "crazy" or "brainwashed".

Well im honset, and yeah i think that ppl who have diffrent oppnion as that. Not that im pointing any fingers at any one individual ore naming any one person.

of_darkness wrote:Uhm complex? nah i cant find it complex realy.. rather un complex..

Janne wrote:And I disagree with you.

well then whe have agre 2 dissagre about it..

of_darkness wrote:uhm konq is stil alot more powerfull then dolphin, the only missing feture is the strange sidebars thats only wasting space.

Janne wrote:It might be "powerful", but it's also complicated.

i still cant se how its complicated, but i gueas that i Home blind(swedish saying, dunno if its valid in english) and dont se the complexity.[hr]

Moult wrote:Very well put, Janne.

[quote=Janne]I see this ALL THE TIME in Windows. There's the quicklaunch-bar in the taskmanager, from which you can launch app with a single-click. And 90% of the time people double-click when they use the quicklaunch-bar, resulting in arror-messages and/or two apps being launched. They do that because everything else in the desktop uses doubleclick. They are utterly incapable of understanding why some icons needs single-click while other icons need doubleclick.

+1.

of_darkness: I'm sorry if perhaps I'm just not understanding your English, but you don't seem to be making any new arguments, or much justification other than "No, I want you all to revert back to 3.5 because I hate changes, I don't like new stuff". Sorry if I seem to be mini-modding, but if you're not going to post anything constructive, please just don't post.

As for the rest of us, we've all answered what you've said, and we're now coming to the stage where we just repeat ourselves. In my opinion, this is adding fuel to a non-beneficial rant/flame thread. Please excuse myself from this thread.
[/quote]

I give _my_ oppnion about it.

well im responding to the replys given, thats what i call a discussion, giving and taking oppinions and thoughts.

well my thoughts may be strange and on the edge but thats just me, i am souch a pearson.

its always benifical for ppl 2 give ther oppnions good ore baad about things, and oppnions dosent nead a valid logical ground thats the way of oppnions.

and no i would not "rant" in this way in a forum not made for discussion.

and no im not flaming, im giving my personal oppnions and im brutaly honest.

of_darkness wrote:

That's hardly a constructive opinion. People have different wants and tastes. Just because they differ from yours, does not mean that they are "crazy" or "brainwashed".

Well im honset, and yeah i think that ppl who have diffrent oppnion as that. Not that im pointing any fingers at any one individual ore naming any

I'm sorry for you if you think like that, in my eyes you are trolling and are not serious, I'm ignoring your post for now. You better of if you start learning to code and make your own distro where you are in charge.

Dryfit wrote:

of_darkness wrote:

That's hardly a constructive opinion. People have different wants and tastes. Just because they differ from yours, does not mean that they are "crazy" or "brainwashed".

Well im honset, and yeah i think that ppl who have diffrent oppnion as that. Not that im pointing any fingers at any one individual ore naming any

I'm sorry for you if you think like that, in my eyes you are trolling and are not serious, I'm ignoring your post for now. You better of if you start learning to code and make your own distro where you are in charge.

Well thats your perogative to think.
But iam the one i am. ,and i am actualy 100%serius , i dont like that other ppl like things i dont. and iam not realy a ppl person.

Well if coulde i would... but its not for me:/ sad to say..

Although my opinion about KDE 4.1 is not as bad as the opinion the thread starter has got, one thing remains true: Konqueror was almost perfect in KDE 3.5, but Dolphin is just ****. What's even worse than Dolphin is the crippled Konqueror file management part in KDE 4.1.

Until I get a decent file manager in KDE 4.x, I will remain a happy KDE 3.5.10 user, becuase that is (for now) the most usable Desktop environment I know (It's a pity that the big distributions don't ship it as default anymore).

However, it's just foolish to switch to Gnome or something just because an early version of a completely renewed Desktop Environment is not as good as a version that had years and years to become what it is. Yes, I'm also not quite happy about KDE 4 in it's current state, but KDE 4 *can* change and *will* change.

The type of attitude that some people have to KDE 4 is the same as the attitude of a lot of people that tried a **** SuSE (or whatever) version years ago and think "Linux is bad" because of that. This doesn't lead to anything but frustration.


So, even if you think that KDE 4.1 is not ready, just relax, use KDE 3.5 and switch over to KDE 4 when it is ready for you.

blueget wrote:Although my opinion about KDE 4.1 is not as bad as the opinion the thread starter has got, one thing remains true: Konqueror was almost perfect in KDE 3.5, but Dolphin is just ****. What's even worse than Dolphin is the crippled Konqueror file management part in KDE 4.1.

Until I get a decent file manager in KDE 4.x, I will remain a happy KDE 3.5.10 user, becuase that is (for now) the most usable Desktop environment I know (It's a pity that the big distributions don't ship it as default anymore).

However, it's just foolish to switch to Gnome or something just because an early version of a completely renewed Desktop Environment is not as good as a version that had years and years to become what it is. Yes, I'm also not quite happy about KDE 4 in it's current state, but KDE 4 *can* change and *will* change.

The type of attitude that some people have to KDE 4 is the same as the attitude of a lot of people that tried a **** SuSE (or whatever) version years ago and think "Linux is bad" because of that. This doesn't lead to anything but frustration.


So, even if you think that KDE 4.1 is not ready, just relax, use KDE 3.5 and switch over to KDE 4 when it is ready for you.

Have you tried using Krusader instead of Dolphin or Konqueror?

of_darkness wrote:Well thats your perogative to think.
But iam the one i am. ,and i am actualy 100%serius , i dont like that other ppl like things i dont. and iam not realy a ppl person.

Well, I'm terribly sorry. But for someone who has problems with spelling and is not a native speaker, a word like "perogative" (you do missed an "r" there somewhere, I must admit) and the myriad of modern English slang terms (viz. "2" instead of "to", "ppl" instead of "people") is a bit strange. Are you absolutely sure you couldn't devote some more time to checking grammar and punctuation before posting something?

Almost all of the points you've mentioned have either a simple fix, or are going to be fixed in the upcoming KDE 4 release. If you're still not happy just use KDE 3.5. It's too early to say distros are dropping support for 3.x. Ubuntu might be dropping its support, but they're known for bundling very recent or even bleeding edge (PulseAudio, anyone ) stuff with their distros. I think that's the most logical step to take anyway when releasing a distro every six months.

But Debian for example still offers it as the standard KDE desktop in the upcoming Lenny release and I'm absolutely sure other distros will support KDE 3 by offering separate repositories until KDE 4 is ready for the mainstream.

mensch wrote:

of_darkness wrote:Well thats your perogative to think.
But iam the one i am. ,and i am actualy 100%serius , i dont like that other ppl like things i dont. and iam not realy a ppl person.

Well, I'm terribly sorry. But for someone who has problems with spelling and is not a native speaker, a word like "perogative" (you do missed an "r" there somewhere, I must admit) and the myriad of modern English slang terms (viz. "2" instead of "to", "ppl" instead of "people") is a bit strange. Are you absolutely sure you couldn't devote some more time to checking grammar and punctuation before posting something?

Sorry to say that my grammar and spelling skillz are almost non existant, specialy when writhing english,but in the understandling and reding aspect im totaly fludent.

mensch wrote:Almost all of the points you've mentioned have either a simple fix, or are going to be fixed in the upcoming KDE 4 release. If you're still not happy just use KDE 3.5. It's too early to say distros are dropping support for 3.x. Ubuntu might be dropping its support, but they're known for bundling very recent or even bleeding edge (PulseAudio, anyone ) stuff with their distros. I think that's the most logical step to take anyway when releasing a distro every six months.

well the thing is that the core of ubuntu is nice and i always use betas of my fav. apps ,excepting kde.(i have the latest svn installed but not using it so mouch as i demands diffrent user 2 run it)

mensch wrote:But Debian for example still offers it as the standard KDE desktop in the upcoming Lenny release and I'm absolutely sure other distros will support KDE 3 by offering separate repositories until KDE 4 is ready for the mainstream.

but the problem is that debian community is realy a **** and ubuntu comunity is kind of nice and helpfull.. (or so i come 2 belive from scratching on the surface on debian pages and reding about it)

of_darkness wrote:but the problem is that debian community is realy a **** and ubuntu comunity is kind of nice and helpfull.. (or so i come 2 belive from scratching on the surface on debian pages and reding about it)

Try SimplyMEPIS. Version 8 if you're not afraid of using betas (based on Debian Lenny), or 7 otherwise (based on Debian Etch). IMO, the best distro there is if you want KDE 3.5.x.

of_darkness wrote:
Im talking about when you have several panels and want to easy and quickly change them, and describing my KIcker panel setup.

You can have several panels. And you can change them. Hell, you could use activities and have several different setups, based on what you want to do.

Not in the same way as in kde3. where you could define the hight in pixels, that is what i mean 2 be in control.

Things are different in KDE4, yes, but that doesn't mean that it's "worse". No, you can't adjust the panel with pixel-precision. Why should you? Do yuo want your panel to be 30 pixels high or 31? That kind of configuration is madness. And in KDE4 it's replaced by a system that is far more sane: you drag the panel to be the height you prefer. That way you don't have to mess around with pixels. Instead, you just look at the panel and determine if it's big/small enough. If it's not, you just drag it bigger/smaller. Far, far saner than adjusting it one pixel at a time.

i want 2 have a controll center modual for plasma panel configuring as kicker had in kde3.

What benefit would that offer, when compared to having the panel-configuration in the panel itself?

and i want 2 have hight,lenght and placement configuring options.

you have all of that. true, they are different that they were in KDE3. But things change. And this time they changed for the better. Messing around with individual pixels is a one way road to mental-asylum.

Janne wrote:

of_darkness wrote:
Im talking about when you have several panels and want to easy and quickly change them, and describing my KIcker panel setup.

You can have several panels. And you can change them. Hell, you could use activities and have several different setups, based on what you want to do.

Not in the same way as in kde3. where you could define the hight in pixels, that is what i mean 2 be in control.

Things are different in KDE4, yes, but that doesn't mean that it's "worse". No, you can't adjust the panel with pixel-precision. Why should you? Do yuo want your panel to be 30 pixels high or 31? That kind of configuration is madness. And in KDE4 it's replaced by a system that is far more sane: you drag the panel to be the height you prefer. That way you don't have to mess around with pixels. Instead, you just look at the panel and determine if it's big/small enough. If it's not, you just drag it bigger/smaller. Far, far saner than adjusting it one pixel at a time.

i want 2 have a controll center modual for plasma panel configuring as kicker had in kde3.

What benefit would that offer, when compared to having the panel-configuration in the panel itself?

and i want 2 have hight,lenght and placement configuring options.

you have all of that. true, they are different that they were in KDE3. But things change. And this time they changed for the better. Messing around with individual pixels is a one way road to mental-asylum.

I haved said the you cant have several panels, im only saing its esier and better in my mind 2 have a central point 2 change the setup of the panels.

Maybe this goes under power user tools,but 4 me its a point of serius irritation as i find that dragging and working whit panels that way is for "regualar" users that arent familiar whit the options and controls.

Im not saing its wrong to have it for many users,but a systemsettings modual is neaded.

its preaty selfsaid that you should be able 2 find all config options of kde inside system settings...

I must beg to differ. i realy find that incresing or setting a number as in kde3 is realy easy and handy.

and when trying to make let say the fast program starter(snabbstartare in swedish) applet in kicker exactly use 3line, - or for that matter a multiline taskmanager, or any other plasmoid that has a hight changing ability.

and when defning my bottom panel thats alwys wisable i do realy nead to be able 2 fine tune the hight.

and when doing your own startmenu icon you do it in xx*xx pixels.

They can't do any plasma config in System Settings because of the way the config is currently exposed & handled. They also want to keep the Plasma configuration simple. Perhaps if a D-Bus call is ever added to reload configuration to Plasma then one might appear, but it might not work too well ( currently plasma config's itself and reacts appropriately )