I installed kubuntu 8.10 beta, with KDE 4.1, on the PC yesterday. It is gorgeous, it is fast, it is snappy, it is beautiful.

Tomorrow, I will reformat the PC and install either a Gnome desktop or a console Gentoo with no GUI. I haven't decided yet.

Even if this means I have to dump & reload 1.2 terabytes of data.

Being pretty is OK for the first 5 minutes. But after that, the horror sets in. The new start menu. Dolphin. Whatever replaced kcontrol. Impossible to find anything. Impossible to do anything. No centralized configuration interface.

Everything crashes, but that's OK, because it's a beta. It's not what is bothering me.

Dumbed down, unusable interfaces everywhere, is what is bothering me.

Konqueror in KDE3 was close to the perfect file manager. It was removed and replaced with ****.

The start menu in KDE3 wasn't very good but at least it was usable. The first thing I thought when I saw the new start menu in KDE4 is "how do I get rid of this ?".

I had to rm -rf ~/.kde* several times because I clicked on the wrong button.

One hour and a half spent trying to setup networking. I gave up and typed "ifconfig eth0 blah && route add default gw" in a config file. But it doesn't even work. This takes 20 seconds with gentoo over a text console, in the rare cases that gentoo doesn't get it right by itself.

I have no interest in a pretty, but unusable desktop.

If it is worse than windows, then I will use the windows PC instead.

KDE team has succeeded in breaking everything that made KDE great.

I expected greatness from KDE4 ; I expected the same extremely well thought out user interfaces KDE3 has, only better.

I got **** instead. Dumbed down everything.

To whomever is responsible for this, I say : you killed the Linux desktop. I used to believe in the linux desktop, not anymore. KDE4 is that bad.

1 hour with KDE4 is enough to persuade a poweruser to switch to windows. It is also very dumb, but at least it crashes less.

Using KDE4 makes me want to punch people int he face.

KDE used to be good, not anymore. Too bad. Farewell, KDE.

As for the KMenu, you can switch to the "Classic Menu" by right clicking on Kickoff (that's the name of the new menu) and select "Simple Menu" (or something like that, I use the alternative Lancelot menu, not Kickoff).

Konqueror can still be used as a file manager in place of Dolphin, just go change your file associations in systemsettings. I think that in 4.2, you will be able to do this with just one changed option.

I have heard others complain about the new interface in systemsettings as well, so you're not alone. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, although I can see how some power users may hate having to go back to the "start page" to switch to a different module.

Instead of just saying "Hi... Bye!", why don't you create some threads here that try to solve some of these problems.

And remember, KDE 3 had many, many years to become as polished as it did. Give KDE 4 some more time, and you may find it usable again.

Instead of ranting about how horrible everything is, why don't you point out exactly what makes Dolphin etc. bad?

> It was removed and replaced with ****.

Konqueror is still there.

> The first thing I thought when I saw the new start menu in KDE4 is "how do I get rid of this ?".

You can switch to the Classic Menu (in the right click menu)

> I gave up and typed "ifconfig eth0 blah && route add default gw" in a config file. But it doesn't even work.

How exactly is this related to KDE?

> To whomever is responsible for this, I say : you killed the Linux desktop.

OK, I confess. It was me. :'(
OH MY GOD, I KILLED K...DE.

Seriously though, going on like this won't make anyone (except maybe yourself) happy. And it certainly won't help making KDE better. If you feel KDE 3.5.x was great, why not keep using it until you calm down and are ready to try out the 4 series again?

Thank god KDE 3.5 is still such a great enviroment that we have a year or two to perfect KDE4.

KDE4 needs time, and "I've installed it, used it for about 2 minutes, didn't like it, i'm leaving" attitude isn't realy constructive, because the best part about open-source programs/platform, such as KDE, is that anyone can contribute and bring new ideas, which will improve usability and versatility of KDE. (And, no, being a developer is not a dependancy for that)

peufeu wrote:Using KDE4 makes me want to punch people int he face.

I hope this rant was enough for you to blow your steam out, so no need to run to the street and start selseless violence ... "Man went berserk, blames desktop".

peufeu wrote:KDE used to be good, not anymore. Too bad. Farewell, KDE.

As jrick wrote:

jrick wrote:And remember, KDE 3 had many, many years to become as polished as it did. Give KDE 4 some more time, and you may find it usable again.

I know the new "start menu" can be reverted to the old "start menu". I used that option as soon as I saw the new "start menu".

You gotta ask yourself, then, why whould KDE team create a new application launcher that is so bad that they HAVE to include a "go away !!!" option so users can revert to something that works ? I wonder. Perhaps they got the idea from Microsoft ?

I must admit that Dolphin got better since the first time I saw it (which was close to the first version). It is still useless though. Why someone would want to reimplement a near-perfect application like Konqueror file manager and replace it with something worse is beyond me.

Konqueror is still there, I know, the first thing I did after reverting the "start menu" was getting rid of Dolphin and reverting to Konqueror. But is isn't the same Konqueror anymore, it feels like Dolphin. I had to restart it a few times because it forgot that drag & drop existed.

> I have heard others complain about the new interface in systemsettings
> as well, so you're not alone. Personally, I don't have a problem with it,
> although I can see how some power users may hate having to go back
> to the "start page" to switch to a different module.

That is not the point.
The point is that kcontrol provides a centralized, clean, easy to use way to configure your system.

My dead grandmother would grok kcontrol.

You want to change something, you go to kcontrol. User has 1 thing to learn. Easy.
You navigate the tree on the left. You quickly find what you need because everything is in its place and carefully organized. The interface is great. It is better than ANY other OS I ever saw. Microsoft could never get that right. KDE did.

On the other hand systemsettings is just a mess.

> And remember, KDE 3 had many, many years to become as polished as it did.
> Give KDE 4 some more time, and you may find it usable again.

Moot point.
It seems that all the experience, all the brain juice that went in KDE3, was wasted. This is a real pity.
KDE4 should have built on the really excellent user interfaces of KDE3, making it better.

> Seriously though, going on like this won't make anyone (except maybe yourself) happy.

I don't need KDE to be happy, don't worry about that.

I need a computer as a tool to perform a specific function, which is :
1- a very safe file server with RAID
2- everyday desktop, internet, mail, without getting worms

Windows fails totally on point 1, and it fails also on point 2, on the "no worms & viruses" part.
KDE4 fails on point 2.
I will only boot the windows PC if I need an application that is not available on Linux.

> And it certainly won't help making KDE better.
> If you feel KDE 3.5.x was great, why not keep using it
> until you calm down and are ready to try out the 4 series again?

There is no need to calm down, because there is no stress.

Simply, I do not wish to use a tool that wastes my time, when a better tool is available. KDE3 was better than Windows so I used it. KDE4 is worse, so I don't use it.

And, after trying it, I came to the conclusion that if KDE4 was an indication of the trend of the evolution that KDE was to take in the future, then I will not be interested in using it in the forseeable future.

A few minutes of using KDE4 is enough to draw conclusions on the new directions KDE is taking ; man-years of developer time have been expended to destroy usability. I do not think more time will fix this, on the contrary, I think it is contagious, as proven by the new version of Adept Manager shipped with Kubuntu 8.10.

> Instead of just saying "Hi... Bye!", why don't you create some threads here that try to solve some of these problems.

Clearly some influential people have made the wrong decisions regarding UI in KDE4 and these decisions have spread. I do not wish to forum-fight with those. I just want a usable desktop. Format, End of story.

2 points you made clearly wrong:
- don't take your opinion as something that counts for everybody. Obviously there are people out there using KDE 4.x and somehow they seem to be loving it. Discussion is good though, that's why we are here.
- this feedback forum is meant for feedback on the forum itself, not KDE. So moving this thread. Please read the descriptions.

I think your main problem is that you expected KDE 3.6 and found something different that does not work as you are used to. Instead of getting into it, you instantly went into a negative attitude, which i think is sad.

peufeu wrote:You gotta ask yourself, then, why whould KDE team create a new application launcher that is so bad that they HAVE to include a "go away !!!" option so users can revert to something that works ? I wonder. Perhaps they got the idea from Microsoft ?

It's called choice...

peufeu wrote:The point is that kcontrol provides a centralized, clean, easy to use way to configure your system.

Depends on who you ask. I too prefer kcontrol but I could easily find quite a few people that thinks it's a total and illogical mess.

peufeu wrote:Moot point.

Not at all. KDE4 is still in its early days, and it's unreasonable to expect it to be as polished as KDE3 is when so much has changed under the hood. The early versions of KDE3 were, at least in my opinion, let's say unpolished and crash-prone...

peufeu wrote:A few minutes of using KDE4 is enough to draw conclusions on the new directions KDE is taking

Much like "Where did my C: go? This Linux thing is obviously faulty if they can't even get that right" after having used a LiveCD for a total of 5 minutes?

I'm not saying KDE4 is perfect. It isn't, but I think you've fallen into the trap of "I know how KDE3 works and I like how it works there, and since I think KDE4 is going backwards everyone but the blind developers must see it the same way".

I loved KDE3.x, but I wouldn't be able to go back anymore.

peufeu wrote:Farewell, KDE.

Well, sorry to see you leave. The fact that you take the time to announce you're leaving, tells me you care, so you may be one of the people this community needs.

On the other hand, the less than constructive nature of your post tells me you may be one of those people who should just stick to Windows. And don't get me wrong, it's okay to feel comfortable with what you know; most people do.
I've been using *nix for the past 12 years or so, and I've tried many times to get people to switch OSs. What I've learned is that most people just want to stick to what they know. And why not: the pc is just a tool, and why would you want to learn a whole new way of using that tool to do the same things you've been doing for years?

From your post, though, I get the feeling you're not entirely happy with Windows as well. Realistically this leaves just one option: switching to a Mac. Switching to a Mac, however, means making an investment in hardware as well, and most people don't want that, especially if it's just for trying it out.

So you're left with 2 options: Windows or some *nix. Since you're willing to go back to Windows because you don't like KDE 4, I think Gnome is not an option to you (if it is, use that; I'd rather see you use Linux/Gnome than Windows Vista).

By now, if you haven't installed Gnome yet, we've boiled things down to 2 options: some Windows (probably Vista) or some *nix with KDE.
Here are some things I'd like you to consider before you decide.

1)
Try and find a Windows community with wikis, mailing lists, IRC channels and forums, where developers actually value the opinion of the user, and where individual developers can make a change. You won't succeed.

2)
Please remember KDE is not a company. You don't pay for the software, so you don't have a right to demand anything. And your opinion is no more or less valuable than the opinion of the next guy (or girl).

3)
KDE does not want to be a Windows clone. Thus, experiments have to be made to find other ways to do the same (and more) things. Some of those experiments will prove to be succesful, some won't. By using KDE you agree to be part of those experiments; in some of those experiments you may be part of a new history, in others you may be wasting your time.

If you don't agree to one or more of the 3 points made above, you're probably better of switching back to Windows; sorry to see you leave, but do yourself (and us) a favour...

Otherwise...
The things you mention are valid; I'm not saying I agree and I'm not saying I disagree, but since they frustrate you, they are valid points. If you want them solved, try to be more constructive. You have some questions: ask them.

If you don't want to be constructive, please, don't be anything and just leave. Nobody needs the 'I hate it' rant.
All (or most by far) KDE developers are volunteers who develop this software in their spare time, hoping someone will want to use it. If you don't want to use it, don't; but don't tell yourself you have a right to hurt people's feelings just because you're frustrated.

Whatever you decide: it's your choice; don't pretend anyone else is reponsible.

I've not used KDE 3 much before I started using KDE 4. However, I noticed several things:

1) If you don't like it, there are alternatives or you can talk to the developers.

One example is KickOff, I had the choice of changing to the old style menu. Since I didn't like that too, I installed something called Lancelot that somebody suggested to me here. Right now I love the menu. Another example is the plasma-icon on the top right, apparently they have this thing called "I-Hate-The-Cashew" which removes it for you. The moral of the story? Choice ftw.

2) KDE 4.x is beta. Beta in my dictionary != finished.

People expect either a finished product or KDE 3.6. I expect unstable testing stuff, and for that expectation, KDE 4.x has blown me away in how polished it is in terms of a beta release.

3) I am constantly seeing things improve every single time I update my packages (I'm not sure if this works the same on a binary distro)

When I first installed 4.0, there were clear problems with the ZUI, system tray, effects, and a vast array of other things. Now at 4.1.2, almost everything I was unhappy with has made significant changes.

Please re-post your "Goodbye, KDE" message with what you didn't like, why you didn't like it, and how it could be improved. That way you'll help the developers too.

@peufeu:

> I must admit that Dolphin got better since the first time I saw it (which was close to the first version). It is still useless though.

You still fail to explain _why_ e.g. Dolphin is unusable. I would say that your complain is unusable.

> I had to restart it a few times because it forgot that drag & drop existed.

Sounds like a bug. Have you checked if it's reported on bugs.kde.org?

> The point is that kcontrol provides a centralized, clean, easy to use way to configure your system.

Why don't you think System Settings is centralized, clean, and easy to use?

> There is no need to calm down, because there is no stress.

*cough* "Using KDE4 makes me want to punch people int he face." *cough*

I still use KDE 3.5.x because I feel comfortable with it. I do check out trunk from time to time.

I don't like Kickoff either and KControl is in my opinion much easier to use (for me) than System Settings. But I also know that whining won't get me anywhere. There are many ways to help the project if you don't have the coding skills: report bugs, write _constructive_ posts. Cheer on the KDE team and, if you feel you don't have enough time, maybe donate some money.

If you feel that KDE is just a tool and don't want to spend time on improving it, then fine. Use whatever fits you best. But if you want to affect KDE, there are many ways of doing it.

From a power user i expect a better post than this, you can explain it far more better then this so it is feedback and not a rant.
Have you also tried other distro's with KDE 4? Because maybe kubuntu is to buggy for you. Did you even read the forum on ubuntu intrepid to see what kind of problems there are?
And there are still option that are coming and are not in KDE 4.1, maybe you have to wait a bit longer and use KDE 4.2 our even later before it is ready again for you.

You are not willing to try it longer but you are ready to re learn eveything by switching to gnome, Talk about dumb down everything and say i switch to gnome. Contradicting and doesn't sound like a "poweruser"

If you want clean and logical design I'm not terribly sure GNOME is such a good option, in fact I'm sure of it. I've used GNOME for a while and it always felt a lot the whole thing is a patchwork of important stuff lacking a clear vision - like having distinct frameworks, etc. That might of course be a remnant of how GNOME started out and had to catch up with KDE back in the early days.

Also, why not wait until KDE 4 reaches a more stable point in its release cycle - 4.2 might be a good start? A lot of your comments touch seem to come from someone who excepted KDE 3.6 and got something which is still heavy under development (I think there is some consensus now that the initial 4.0 release should have been marked more as a development version and not a stable one), as was said earlier by others. Why not stay with KDE 3 and upgrade later, if you really do love it so much. Installing GNOME instead or working solely from the command line seems a bit drastic to my mind.

Blizzz wrote:I think your main problem is that you expected KDE 3.6 and found something different that does not work as you are used to. Instead of getting into it, you instantly went into a negative attitude, which i think is sad.

I think this is the best response I have ever heard.

It's true.

That said, I could not go back to 3.5 after using 4