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KDE4: Why fix something which was not broken?
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Initiated by a crash of my hard disk in my main machine I decided to install Debian Squeeze.
Squeeze comes with KDE4 desktop. What a disappointment. I can accept to learn how to use a different user interface, that is only a matter of time to get used to. But I cannot accept to loose speed or functionality. I played around with this horrible creation for one night, and found these issues which I could not solve: - Window resizing is slow as on a PIII-400 MHz with a 1998 graphics card. I understand it has something to do with the NVIDIA GPU driver. However, even with a broken NVIDIA driver KDE worked very well in version 2.x and 3.x.y. Gone is all the speed and snappyness. I used to run KDE 3.5.9 on a 600 MHz Celeron and it was still satisfactory. I am now complaining because it runs like syrup on a AMD 2800+. - The mouse pointer has doubled in size and has fuzzy edges and an unclear shadow, this feels like typing with boxing gloves. I happen to use Inkscape, QCAD and Wings3D a lot where a fine mouse pointer is a must. Choosing the classic pointer only works in the configuration screen, but it returns to the Giant Stick as soon as you return to the desktop. - The panel colors are black, gray and dark gray, and changing these does not work as advertised. Welcome to our new Funeral theme! NOt only is it unpleasant, everything black/grey makes it difficult to see icons in an instant. - The mouse pointer and whatnot looks fuzzy and unsharp. There is an option to in graphical effect to sharpen the screen elements. What? First using processor time to fuzzyfy it, then again to apply sharpening? No wonder this desktop has a syrupy feeling. The graphics effects do not work anyway despite of a correctly installed accelerated NVIDIA card. - Worst of all, Quanta has magically disappeared. Yeah, I installed Kompozer, but that is no match. As it happens I spend half of my time developing web sites. Unfortunately Debian choose to include KDE4 in the new testing distribution. Even although I can stick with Stable for some time, there will be an inevitable moment that I have to switch. That is not something I look forward to. With all due respect, I was extremely grateful to the KDE developers for the effort they have put in KDE, especially the gradual improvements from KDE 2.x to my current version KDE 3.5.9. But please, PLEASE, can someome explain me why such a huge (and it was really, really huge) effort was put in completely rewriting (and trashing) a very good desktop in something which looks a lot more like Windows Vista, but lost a lot of functionality and performance? jlinkels |
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Moved because:
1. It is only partially related to workspace, 2. The issues brought up come from all over the place 3. It's mostly a rant and thus fits better in opinion.
OpenSUSE 11.4, 64-bit with KDE 4.6.4
Proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct. |
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First of all, Debian Squeeze is not a stable distribution. It says that right on the first page. If you intentionally use an unstable distribution, you are going to run into bugs. You seem to automatically conclude that all of your bugs are KDE's fault when you intentionally installed an unstable system. You should at least consider the possibility that the distribution may have some fault in them.
Window resizing issues are a known problem that the developers are working on. That being said, are desktop effects on? You might want to consider disabling them on a system that old.
I do not have this problem. It sounds like a bug related to your distribution.
This is not the default theme shipped with KDE 4.3. KDE developers cannot be blamed if the distribution decides to pick a different theme. You should be able to change the theme easily enough, just right-click on the desktop and click "desktop settings". You can pick the theme there.
There is no "fuzzify" effect, and my mouse pointer is not fuzzy at all. Are you sure your resolution is correct?
Which applications are available is decided entirely by your distribution, not by KDE. If debian decided to remove a program, that is their fault not KDE's.
You are using an unstable distribution, and yet you are surprised when it is not stable, somehow concluding that it is KDE's fault.
So far, out of all of your complaints only one is clearly KDE's fault. Several are definitely the fault of Debian, and the rest are problems that appear to also be Debian's fault. If you want a stable experience, you should use a stable distribution. If you use an unstable distribution, don't go and blame the upstream developers for the instability.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
-NASA in 1965 |
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It seems to me that you say "you are all wrong!". Frankly, I hope I am all wrong.
About Debian Testing, this is not unstable. As a matter of fact, Unstable is a separate branch, which is ... well ... unstable. Still, this Unstable version is considered often more stable than other's Stable versions. Debian Testing is known for providing a not-too-aged stable system for everything except servers. KDE4 has it made only last month to Testing, while for example it has been included in Kubuntu for quite some time. It says something about the quality of the software which is allowed in Testing. About the other issues, I won't be behind the machine in question until late tonight, so I can't verify the issues you point out. When I get there, I'll consider your remarks and post back. jlinkels |
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Yes, it is unstable. It is not as unstable as the "unstable" version, but it is still not considered stable. They say so right here:
Notice it says "some degree of testing" and "fewer release-critical bugs", not "full testing" and "no release-critical bugs". Whatever the case, the removal of a package and the change from the default theme are definitely the responsibility of Debian, not KDE. The issue with the mouse pointer is not something that I have ever encountered. Looking at bugs.kde.org, there are two bugs related to the classic cursor issue you are describing, 194510 and 196555. Both users are using Debian testing, so this definitely looks like a Debian-related bug.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
-NASA in 1965 |
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What are you actually saying? That Debian Testing is unstable and that I can expect to find a non fully tested package like KDE4, or that KDE is perfectly stable and that is was screwed up by Debian since it is still in Testing?
I don't have desktop effects enabled, they don't work "due to a problem in my X driver". I have never seen any X related errors before while using KDE 3.x. The system might be "that old", but KDE 3.x was running faster on a 600 MHz Celeron than KDE4 on this AMD 2800+.
Look at these two pictures: http://pdis.rnw.nl/~hansl/links/kde_classic_cursor.jpg http://pdis.rnw.nl/~hansl/links/kde_oxygen_cursor.jpg (Make sure you look at the pictures in original size, otherwise they are really fuzzy) The old cursor is crisp and small. I can't help but I perceive the Oxygen one as fuzzy. And it is large. Just like I am using a #3 crosshead screwdriver as only tool in my computer. Is this a distro problem? How would they have managed to screw this up? Besides, I have no less than 37 different colored huge fuzzy cursors to choose from.
I have about 8 themes installed, except for Air and Aya they are all black/dark blue/dark gray combinations. This picture shows the lightest panel that I could get: http://pdis.rnw.nl/~hansl/links/kde_panel.jpg That is not pleasant for the eye, is it? But if you can point me to some schemes which have a lighter panel color (like #bbb or so) I'd be happy to download it and I will admit immediately that this is a distro problem.
I am using an old CRT so the resolution does not have to match exactly. Besides it is the same resolution I used in KDE 3.x, AND the classic cursor does look crisp.
That is not true. Quanta was a part of KDEWebDev. It is not compatible with KDE4, and I have understood that the author is not very interested to adapt it to KDE4. The same happened to Kuickshow, it is not there anymore, but I am not sure if there is interest to adapt it to KDE4. Lack of these applications (and maybe more applications) is a result of a different implementation of KDE. I feel sorry about that, and that is what I mean that something got lost which had not have to happen if the KDE developers had not chosen to break compatibility by this massive code development. About speed again: when I hovered over icons in the taskbar in KDE 3.x, the icon would turn brighten immediately and show a balloon with the name of the application. In KDE4 it takes 200-300 ms while it slowly brightens, and at the THIRD second the balloon appears. Is that slowness intended, or just awfully slow? When I changed my desktop scheme, it took 6-7 seconds before the color change became visible. I had the Windows Vista feeling, for the extreme slow reaction time, and for the feeling "that I should upgrade my hardware" in order to achieve reasonable performance. jlinkels |
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I've been where you are, and I just want to make two points. It's a simple fact of life that developers drive Linux at every level. Free software exists so that these people can be free to do what they do. They're not going to stop, nor should they. Developers are interested in development, and KDE3 doesn't need to be developed any more. When something can't be improved, they need to start over. If not for KDE4, if the KDE developers had been forced to continue working on KDE3, it not only would have been a terrible waste of their considerable talents and vision, but they would have probably broken it. Those who run the distros have been racing to adopt KDE4 way too fast, IMO. That's because they're all developers too. Those of us who are mere users, and want to keep using the mature KDE3 should stop looking to the developers to take care of our needs, and work out our own solutions. I'm going with a legacy live CD distrobution. With a copy of Slax 6.1.2 archived on every hard drive, and lots of additional software besides (including all the packages of Slackware 12.2), I can keep using KDE3 for as long as I could want, without losing the ability to boot up the latest software when I really need to. There are simple ways of hacking a live cd (the mount command, the adduser command, shell scripts) that will make it run exactly like a hard drive installed distro. There are security concerns with running older software, but a daily reboot should take care of a lot of that. Nothing survives a reboot in a live CD. I recommend Slax, which seems to be infinitely hackable, or check out Pearson Computing, which still produces an unofficial KDE3 version of Kubuntu: http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/ I've also started using bit torrent to download all the software for Lenny. I intend to be my own repository. Trust me, KDE4 is going to be awesome one day. These guys aren't going to quit until they've got it running perfectly... then they'll abandon it. We might as well get used to taking care of our own needs. |
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Sure, there's no KDE4 version of Quanta but I think it's being worked on. Still, there's no problem in running the KDE3 version of the program - unless it's been removed from the distr's repo.
OpenSUSE 11.4, 64-bit with KDE 4.6.4
Proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct. |
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I want to issue a correction:
I really meant to say that those who run the distros have been way too fast to drop KDE3. Incidentally, if you want to keep using KDE3 after Lenny, take a look at the light, Slackware-based distros Zenwalk and Vector. Currently, these distros default with XFCE, and give you a choice of what KDE to install from their repos. Distros that don't install with KDE at all, don't have to favor one or another. Still, I read that KDE3 wasn't getting any upstream support, and that's why I'm working on my Slax CD. In January of 2008, Aaron Siego wrote that as long as KDE3 had users, it would be maintained, but it hasn't worked out that way, partly because while users are split on KDE4, the developers all love it. KDE3 has users, but among them are no developers, so it's slowly dying. From lack of oxygen, if you'll pardon the pun. Anybody who wants KDE3 to stay vital might want to ask themselves if they'd be willing to pay for that. There are certainly end users who favor KDE4, but it's hard to deny that it wasn't the end users who made the decision to make this shift permanent, irrevocable, and total. It was Canonical, Novell, the KDE team, the distros. Everybody but the users. And the economics may have everything to do with that. The customer is always right, The user? Not so much. The volunteers aren't doing it, and there's no reason why they should have to, if it's not what interests them. Would we be willing to pay someone to do it? To keep KDE3, perhaps other another name, vital and current, in a form that I could easily use with Debian or Slackware, I would pay... lets see... 50 dollars a year, easy, probably more if I had to. Any KDE developers willing to make an offer to the KDE 3 users in the community? It would be a great opportunity to get us to put up or shut up. If we're not willing to pay, we shouldn't be willing to complain. |
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I don't know which version you are using but:
kde the 4.0.x and 4.1.x series are dead slow, the 4.2.x series is better, kde4.3.1 was quite terrible but kde4.3.1 and kde4.3.2 quite acceptable |
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I am not saying it is perfectly stable, no software is, but it is quite stable. It seems pretty clear that Debian has introduced some problems.
Nvidia has terrible support for old video cards. KDE 3 doesn't have desktop effects of any kind, so of course you weren't encountering that problem.
That is how the oxygen cursors are supposed to look. They do not look at all blurry to me, they use a smooth gradient and anti-aliasing as opposed to a flat color and jagged edges, but that is not blurry, just smoother. Yes the main cursor is a bit bigger, but other parts of the cursor theme are smaller and others are the same size. Whatever the case, if you don't like the oxygen cursors then don't use them. I think they look a lot better and are a lot easier on the eyes than the jagged, flat classic theme.
Try oxywin, gaia recycled, or nano. And don't forget you can mix and match parts of themes, in case you don't like (for instance) the green in gaia.
Many distributions still package KDE 3.5 applications when there is not a KDE 4 equivalent. Quanta, for instance, is still available for opensuse. If there is no KDE 4 application that does what you need to do, you should use a distribution that still has good KDE 3.5 support. Kuickshow was replaced with the KDE 4 version of Gwenview. In KDE 4 gwenview does essentially everything kuickshow did. And KDE developers had to break binary compatibility. Trolltech was ending support for Qt 3, KDE developers had to move to Qt 4, and with all the changes to Qt 4 there was no way to maintain binary compatibility.
That is just how the animation goes. Try using smooth tasks instead, you can set the animation to 0ms and that removes the delay entirely.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
-NASA in 1965 |
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Banned
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mixing themes won't help, he has no compositing extension that kde4 likes.
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I fail to see how compositing makes any difference. He wants a lighter-colored panel, lighter-colored panels are available but may come with other theme parts he doesn't like.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
-NASA in 1965 |
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Banned
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oh, i adress to the gray color. If compositing is off then all panels look basicly gray/black - plain ugly. btw, kde4.3.1 (that's in debian testimg now) is more picky about compositing than 4.3.0 - i.e. it will refuse to use compositing (and give you a nice unusable error message) even when the extension is working. I've seen it on ati proprietary drivers (latest version) so far.
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There are themes that have lighter-colored panels even when compositing is off. I listed a few in my earlier post.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
-NASA in 1965 |
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