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Konqueror should be replaced by a better web browser
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My first try was Arora and works really well, some problems with flash, but much better experience than with Konqueror. But I want to try Chrome and when it was available I install the alpha in my openSUSE thinking that would be unusable but, surprise, surprise, it was fast, very stable, great architecture and has all the things I need in a browser. In two weeks I stop using Arora and now my main browser is Chrome for last three months approximately. But if I must choose between Arora and Konqueror I choose Arora with no doubt.
Ignacio Serantes, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Nov.
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Splitting the window isn't used for reading one web-page. It's used for reading several, or reading a web page and a document, or browsing the web with a file manager on the side, or hell, even for previewing a local HTML file in one pane while editing it in another to preview a website you're designing. That's a great feature for a lot of people, and one Firefox doesn't have.
Yes, but website do still link to FTP URLs and, with the feature I mentioned above, you can use the file management feature to download links/files from a website strait to folders on your hard-drive with click-and-drag. It's massively better then the alternatives in Firefox etc.
Again, because I can split the window, I can view the website and the file in one tab which, since the two are likely related, is rather a gift. Moreover, just like with any other web-page, I can open it in the same tab if I so please. That, and it's nice to not have to wait for another application to start before I can read it: in fact, it's nice to have the functionality of another application without even having to open it separately.
What makes you think it matters which website you're downloading from? If it can be downloaded, Konqueror/KGet can download it. KGet even has torrent integration as standard, which is ALSO missing from other web browsers. It has a drop-target and can monitor the clipboard, which you said you frequently use to download files, for files to download from the internet, two other features missing in other browsers.
Show me a Firefox window that looks like this:  Since I use gestures... you know, the ones automatically set up for Konqueror... I don't have much need for the toolbar buttons.
Ah, yes. Yet ANOTHER extension for firefox to check for updates to at start-up, slowing down that giant even more. Hell, even if you tell it not to check for updates to extensions, it slows to a crawl just initializing them. On the other hand, I get that for free in Konqueror: open a session or profile in KRunner and Konqueror starts in... what, a second, maybe?
It's funny you mention Asian languages, to a dude in Britain...
Yeah, but I can't get, "short automatic"-type completion in Firefox OR Google Chrome. If I want Firefox to stop popping down the annoying menu, I have to search for it in Edit --> Preferences somewhere... on the other hand, I've not found a way to change it at all in Chrome.
I've tested Chromium against Konqueror: I didn't notice the difference. However, I DID notice the difference when I went to KDE's FTP site. As for Firefox's extension... well, what extension?
What I'm on about is Settings --> Configure Konqueror --> Browser identification. Also under Tools --> Change Browser Identification. Because, you know, Google started doing that thing where Youtube looks different under Chrome then Firefox... where, actually, quite a few Google pages look different under Chrome then Firefox... that, and some people care a little about their privacy (well, would you look at that! Google in legal privacy trouble AGAIN?)
If you said it in context:
Yes, CONFIGURATION is in there as well. Of course, that rings true but you just don't want to admit it... silly me...
So you choose not to change it in Konqueror, but want to change it in Firefox... what the hell kinda argument is that?
Wow. Firefox and Chromium have never done this before! /sarc
Problems with Flash in Konqueror? Not on my rig... unless you mean that memory-eating it likes to do, that exists in Firefox and Chromium as wel... and those moonlight problems... kinda like those problems with Quicktime in both Firefox and Chromium on Linux, then? Though, who actually USES those?
Hence the, "if it switches to Webkit as the default rendering engine..." at the end of my post. But, you know, just ignore that because I'm actually correct there... again...
Wow, you're right, Firefox and Chromium both integrate REALLY well with KDE by comparison! Hell, even that pseudo-integration the Suse guys have going doesn't use KGet or KWallet...
Read the end of my post a few times again. Then read it a few times more. Since, you know, you must have missed it the first hundred times I told you to read it...
Except, you know, it uses the same scheme as the rest of KDE... in fact, if you add a service menu in KDE, it'll show up in Konqueror as well... because, you know, that's what integration MEANS... Moreover, a search in the Kubuntu repository reveals 19 hits for, "konqueror-plugin". I actually DO prefer that they're in the repository instead of in some separate sub-application in Konqueror, because it checks for updates with the rest of the system instead of slowing down my Konqueror start-up, like some other popular web-browser does.
And there's something wrong with Babelfish... why?
And this makes Konqueror worse at web-browsing how? I'm starting to think you're just throwing out the first thing that comes to your mind, regardless of whether it's actually relevant...
You mean this [url=http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/base/nepomuk-kde/konq-nepomuk/]integration, the type that's in playground right now? How's that Firefox/Chrome-Nepomuk integration coming along? Oh, that's right...
So the Konqueror devs won't fix a Qt bug? This surprises you, somehow?
See the one above.
That makes the score 21-1... to me...
I guess this doesn't exist, then. Whole conversation must have been a pigment of my imagination...
If they're anything like the, "problems" that you point out before that I'd countered even before you pointed them out, then it should be all right.
Then you'll be glad that kdewebkit is in trunk and Konqueror/Webkit is being worked on rather hard... which, like I said before, will iron out all but one of your, "problems" with it, and that's phising detection.
Are you still talking?
Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
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[quote="Madman"][/quote]
I will try to resume because answer you point for point must be exhausted for other readers but, discussion was, at leas for me, very interesting. The first point I try to explain you is the problems associate to non English users with Konqueror and KDE 4. You told that are britain and probably don't speak other language and, even, don't have any interest in learn one, so KTTS and babelfish is enough to you. But in my case I'm Galician so, I speak Spanish and Galician as mother languages, known some Portuguese, understand a very few of Italian, speak and write "Engrish"  and I'm studing Japanese. Try to search all this functions in Babelfish. I found KDE encoding bugs in several parts of KDE that must be fixed by KDE developers, but there is no much interest in fixing it, I think that Albert fix is paradigmatic. Legacy encoding bug is other kind of bug related to QByteArray that only QT developers can fix, if they like.In second place, I prefer to use specific than generic applications. For web develop I use Quanta or Netbeans, and use Chrome and Firefox capabilities to preview. Preview with Konqueror is not really useful for me because when I develop a web page my users don't use Konqueror. We can spend eons with a discussion of what is better approach, that is a matter of preference, but we are missing the point of this discussion. Is Konqueror actually good web browser? Third, KGet is and application and is not part of Konqueror. I don't use it because was very unstable when I test it (4.1.x), and don't support download files from Megaupload, Fileshare, etc... I launch again and I can see that was improved and added Nepomuk support, something really useful for me because I'm a Nepomuk fan, so I will try againg but, I don't need Konqueror to use it. Thanks, without this discussion probably I don't give it a second chance. Four, I'm tired of things that Konqueror 4 would be, I'm talking about stability and OpenSearch support, I need it now and sorry, I'm only a user and I don't read Konqueror development list, a totally lost of time for something that don't use Konqueror. But, it's good that this feature was added and, when it will released, I test it to report encoding bugs. You told me that Nepomuk integration was in playground, but, what do you think?, I'm a user, I don't compile KDE, I'm tired of KDE crashes with stable releases, and I you suggest me that I must try playground. You probably are joking  .Five, you have a perspective of power user (you are using mouse gestures, I think that nobody without disability use this kind of things, I'm old so I'm a keyboard guy), but I think you are a grain in the dessert of users. If Konqueror developers are thinking in users like you and not in normal users, is perfectly clear why Konqueror is in this situation. I predict that Konqueror users would decline and you maintain that when webkit was fully implemented users raise. We can not both be right but, a couple of years past really fast. Six, my last entry was a joke, you must turn on your sense of humor  .Ah, I forgot it, the application was "Firefox Launcher", it's not a plugin and it's and is based in "OpenOffice Launcher" and add Webkit it not a solution to Web Applications because then need a plugin in (like Google Gears for Google Apps), to work at 100%. You think that any company would be develop a plugin to Konqueror?. I don't think so. By the way, in http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php of October 2009, Opera 9.6 has a 0.57% so Konqueror has even less percent because don't appears. Any place where we can obtain how many people was using Konqueror?. I think that KDE Forums administrators can offer us a good perspective about Konqueror usage in last year, because this was a site where there must be many Konqueror users. This can be very useful in this discussion because we can work with real data and not with points of view . I think that the most used browser is Konqueror (3 or 4, an interesting question), and following are Firefox, and in last place Arora or Opera. If there is only one Chrome user was me  .
Ignacio Serantes, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Nov.
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The point of my referencing the mailing lists, developer discussions and trunk/playground is to say that, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean nothing's happening to solve your problems - and many of them WILL be solved in the upcoming 4.4, just as many problems have been solved over the past 2 years in each subsequent release of KDE 4. Moreover, as I've already explained, some of them simply will never happen in Firefox or Chromium at all, because they're just not part of KDE (Nepomuk integration, which you stated was a downside to Konqueror - yet for some reason you use Firefox, which ALSO doesn't support it and probably never will).
Yes, the Qt encoding bug is a shame, but until the main classes in Qt are fixed the KDE sub-classes will suffer the same bugs. Hence, it's not a fault of KHTML, Konqueror or KDE, it's a Qt fault and that's where it's got to be fixed. And I don't know about you, but I use browser identification on sites like Google, Facebook, Youtube and several others so that they'll function properly, and it wouldn't surprise me if many other Konqueror users do as well. Hence, if we're telling them that we're using Firefox when we're actually using Konqueror, then the browser usage stats would prove unreliable (the same thing happens with Firefox/Internet Explorer as well, with extensions like IETab and, again, Browser Identification plug-ins). Again, I don't preview websites in KHTML, I preview them in the Webkit KPart, since all that's really missing from it is KWallet integration. And regarding your thoughts of me as a perspective user, what makes you think that? Microsoft recently introduced Window Tiling in Windows 7, which is basically split windows but less flexible and more hassle, and yet users are clambering all over it. Having torrents *just work* in the default download manager is also a big plus, where you don't have to have a full-blown torrent client just to download the file. Firefox launcher: not in Ubuntu repos. Konqueror preloader: built-in and hell, even activated by default. One's lots of hassle if you're not on Suse, the other's no hassle at all, regardless of where you use it. Finally, in one breath you state that you want Konqueror to be the powerful file-manager/web-browser/file-previewer it was in KDE 3.5, then in the next breath state you prefer specialized applications over generic ones. So, which one is actually correct?!
Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
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Well, I supposed that all used applications still be better and developers try to improve it. Even Microsoft do this things so Konqueror developers must doing the same. The problem is that we are waiting for the real one Konqueror since KDE 4.2.x, (4.0 don't counts and I consider KDE 4.1.x the first beta) and we always read, the next is the good, the next is the good. I have no reasons to believe that Konqueror 4.4 will be the good one but, don't worry, I would try it. About Nepomuk integration, the only places when you need it in a browse its in bookmarks and in downloads, something that could be solved with a plugin or extension. The biggest fault with Konqueror as a file browser was that Dolphin seems to be more integrated with KDE 4 than Konqueror so, a relevant question would be: how many people that use Konqueror 3 now, in KDE 4, still use it and how many people use Dolphin? Without no doubt, Qt4 encoding system is really bad because don't support legacy encoding and because it isn't compatible with Qt3 encoding system so, there is many places in KDE where encoding fails. The most important thing when your API changed is read, and understand, changelog.
Well, one thing is you can browse this sites and other is that works well. With my NDS I can read my mail in Google but I can't do the same things that I can do with Chrome. About YouTube or IMDB, in my particular case, Konqueror only resist 10 minutes before crash and both are sites I browse very frecuently. There is no doubt that Konqueror can open a url and don't crash if you see then for a minute, but, in my case, isn't usable. Finally, if we can detect how many users use Konqueror is difficult to obtain a accurate result in this discussion, but I think that Konqueror share is really low. Yes, it's a good improvement (adding ed2k, megadownload, fileshare, etc.. support would be too) but I use uTorrent and RSS integration to automatically download my torrents from sites. When that integration supports that kind of things I would think in stop using uTorrent (by the way works great in wine). But, as I write before, KGet is and independent application and is not part of Konqueror and I think that this discussion was about Konqueror as browser. I could use it with Chrome, Firefox, Arora, etc... I'm not sure about the name, maybe "Mozilla Quickstarter", but I used long time ago until I discover alltray that offers me the same but for all applications, before Yakuake I have a Konsole always open in System Tray. Actually I only use Firefox when I'm browse sites in Japanese (Firefox Japanese plugins help me reading kanjis) and Firefox was very slow starting for extensions (Japanese plugins must read a 10MB db), but I don't have the preloader installed now and I wait because is my fault to add many heavy plugins to Firefox. Chrome launch fastest than a preloaded Konqueror so there is no reason to have Chrome preloaded spending memory if I don't use it. I wonder why Konqueror, the main browser/filer manager of KDE, modular, developed using Qt/KDE, is so slow starting and you need to it be preloaded?. I wonder what kind of magic are using Chrome developers because Chrome uses Gtk+ and, for logic, it would be start slow than Konqueror in KDE. Yes, a few year ago Konqueror 3 offers me enough power to done some things like you do now and I use as file browser and web browser. But when I need focus in one thing I start the proper program, for example, I done minor web changes with Konqueror 3 but when I must develop a entire web site I start Quanta. I writed prefer, not I always do, my "engrish" has proper life  . On the other side, I always dislike view PDF, or other kind of files, inside my browser and this is valid to any web browser. Everyone has their usage tastes.But we are losing the point again. Is Konqueror a good web browser and must be replaced?. Is Konqueror 4.3.3 good enough and openSUSE people taken the good decision? Your point was particular and powerful usage cases and focused in English users and my point is browser experience in popular sites and not English users. With Konqueror 4 browser experience, in my case, was painful (I used from KDE 4.1.0 beta 1 to KDE 4.3.1), with Arora things works much better and with Chrome 64 bits things was great. In your case, well, Konqueror 4 looks like paradise (probably sinde KDE 4.0): fastest, stable, powerful and is like an operating system by itself, maybe Konqueror developers must release Konqueror OS .Without real data it's really difficult to take a conclusion about Konqueror state so, we must wait and see.
Ignacio Serantes, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Nov.
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Just to put in my 0.02,
I've always felt that Konqueror is a bulky program that tries to be too much. This doesn't mean it's a bad program. It just means it replicates the functionality of Dolphin as well as being a web browser. The issue I find is not whether or not Konqueror should be replaced by default or not - but _can_ it be replaced? As far as I understand Konqueror is very much a fundamental section of the KDE infrastructure. EG: I can't have a KDE install without Konqueror also existing in it. If this dependency were removed, people could choose what they wanted, Dolphin + Konqueror, Dolphin + Firefox, Dolphin + Rekonq (my choice), Konqueror only, etc. This keeps both developers and users happy. Of course I would love to be proven wrong.
Moult, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
thinkMoult - source for tech, art, and animation: hilarity and interest ensured! WIPUP.org - a unique system to share, critique and track your works-in-progress projects. |
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It seems to me that there is a considerable amount of disagreement here on both sides. There are a large number of people who I think (rightly) are not satisfied with Konqueror as their main browser for KDE. The issues they have seem to stem from dissatisfaction with the speed and compatibility of Konqueror and a number have identified it's split-purpose nature as a potential issue. I would suggest that these issues may have come about because people feel that Konqueror is being left behind. Chrome has put a great deal of pressure on the other browsers to improve their game with it's speed, compatibility and focus on doing it's one job well. Many other browsers are responding to this by adopting webkit such as Gnome's Epiphany.
It seems that the direction for Konqueror is going to take is unclear and it seems to be falling further behind these other browsers in the 2 main areas speed and compatibility. If Konqueror were to adopt webkit it would help with a number of these issues. The other complaint about the multi-purpose nature of Konqueror has been defended here. I don't see a problem with providing multiple functions such as file browsing or torrent download as long as it is not at the expense of it's main function which is web browsing. Perhaps these parts should be looked at to ensure that they are not slowing the web browsing experience or causing issues with compatibility or stability, and if they are some tough decisions should be made about them. |
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I think you may be wrong. Konqueror used to be part of KDEbase, now it's a seperate package. But since, of course, you can run what you want, and set the defaults you want, aren't we really just talking about a little bit of space on the hard drive? Konqueror is why I can never leave KDE, even if I am not a fan of the current regime. I'm still finding new tricks and wrinkles in Konqueror 3. There should be no question of maintaining qnd contnuing to develop Konqueror. But I don't think it makes a good default web browser, probably for reasons similar to why it didn't make a good default file manager for wsome people. It's just too big to fit in an assigned role in an integrated KDE Desktop. Konqueror should just be set free, allowed to develop on it's own terms as the incredible badass Desktop power tool that it is. If someone wants to develop a nice polite mozilla-based web browser thant knows it's place, i think that would be lovely. KDE has two File managers and... three text editors? (Kwrite, Kate, Kedit?) I seem to remember a Kedit. Anyway, you get the idea. Would a second web browser be such a burden? In fact, didn't I just see something about how KDE has changed its name from the K Desktop Environment to "KDE", referring to a more generalized group of applications? So Konqueror wouldn't have to part of the Desktop to be part of KDE. |
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Is it possible to run KDE without having Konqueror installed? Something about the Gentoo maintainers putting Konqueror in the kde-base set seems to not agree.
Moult, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
thinkMoult - source for tech, art, and animation: hilarity and interest ensured! WIPUP.org - a unique system to share, critique and track your works-in-progress projects. |
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Konqueror is still a part of KDEBase. Its source code resides at http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/kdebase/apps/konqueror
KDE Sysadmin
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Well, i have been looking into using chrome with KDE and i came along this thread. If my opinion is of any importance, as an experienced linux user and an OSS dev, i find Konqueror completely inadequate as a web browser. Last time i tried it was in Kubuntu 9.04 (KDE 4.3) and disregarding the many incompatibilities i was shocked to see it crash so often and no flash was not the problem.
my 2c |
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It is possible. KDEBase is actually 3 modules under the same name: apps(konqueror), workspace, runtime. Only runtime is needed for a minimal KDE installation.
connect(post, SIGNAL(readSignature()), qapp, SLOT(quit()));
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Aha, thanks for clearing that up.
nvrs, I reccomend you try "rekonq".
Moult, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
thinkMoult - source for tech, art, and animation: hilarity and interest ensured! WIPUP.org - a unique system to share, critique and track your works-in-progress projects. |
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I would rather have Konqueror kept as the default web browser and improve it to have more features and maybe even an integrated bittorrent client like Opera has. I would like kthml over webkit, but that I just me but let me know what everyone thinks of this idea and maybe for default again for openSUSE 11.4 or 12. I am using opensuse 11.3 an it has firefox as default web browser and I prefer Konqueror over firefox. I am new to these forums and any help/tips/information will be gladly be appreciated. I should mention I am using the opensuse 11.3 KDE version.
Daniel Hallett |
) and I don't use KGet because I prefer Chrome, Firefox or KDE own downloaders. But no problem, with Klipper, or with a drag&drop, I can download files using KGet like I do to download from Megaupload and Fileshare using JDownloader. Can I download files from Megaupload or Fileshare using Konqueror and KGet?
. By the way, cookies bugs in Konqueror was terrible this year and was last bug I tolerate before kick off.
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