Moult wrote:... and going back at 2handband, I actually agree that a good Office Suite is probably the best starting point before we seriously start considering creative apps again.

I only sort-of agree. Agree in the sense that a great Office suite would be what most people would need if they'd seriously consider Linux/BSD (personally I think OO.org is more than sufficient for around 95% or so of the computer users of today - regardless of OS, it's the remaining percents that's the problem).

I don't think you meant it that way, but "before we seriously start considering creative apps again" to me sound like it's something that can be determined by a board or election what apps to write or add manpower to. That works for Adobe and Microsoft but doesn't work so well in a F/OSS environment...

I don't think more people would start working on Koffice or OO.org even if a majority of the users, or that board, would consider that essential. If someone wants to work on Krita, Gimp, Inkscape, Rosegarden, Quanta, Audacity, LMMS or whatever that's where they're going to work no matter if more urgent work is necessary elsewhere. It's only a matter of where the coder in question feels his skills are best utilized and where his interests lie that can determine that.

And that's probably a good thing. Just because you're good at improving the Gimp code-base does not necessarily mean you will be good at improving the Koffice one. Not at first anyway.

Kryten2X4B wrote:

Moult wrote:... and going back at 2handband, I actually agree that a good Office Suite is probably the best starting point before we seriously start considering creative apps again.

I only sort-of agree. Agree in the sense that a great Office suite would be what most people would need if they'd seriously consider Linux/BSD (personally I think OO.org is more than sufficient for around 95% or so of the computer users of today - regardless of OS, it's the remaining percents that's the problem).

I don't think you meant it that way, but "before we seriously start considering creative apps again" to me sound like it's something that can be determined by a board or election what apps to write or add manpower to. That works for Adobe and Microsoft but doesn't work so well in a F/OSS environment...

I don't think more people would start working on Koffice or OO.org even if a majority of the users, or that board, would consider that essential. If someone wants to work on Krita, Gimp, Inkscape, Rosegarden, Quanta, Audacity, LMMS or whatever that's where they're going to work no matter if more urgent work is necessary elsewhere. It's only a matter of where the coder in question feels his skills are best utilized and where his interests lie that can determine that.

And that's probably a good thing. Just because you're good at improving the Gimp code-base does not necessarily mean you will be good at improving the Koffice one. Not at first anyway.

I understand the nature of the problem; I was merely pointing to it's effects. This issue is fundamental; that 5% of the population that needs Microsoft Office is, to be honest, the critical 5% when it comes to Linux's chances of breaking through on the desktop. These are the people that are depending on a computer for getting their work done, and they won't consider switching unless an office package is 100% comparable to what they're currently using.

As for the solution... damned if I know. OO.o is a corporate-sponsored app with lots of money behind it and a lot of developers... and it still lags behind MS Office. So what does it take to actually achieve that level of functionality?

Moult wrote:(sorry Quanta fans!)

I like Quanta because it actually improves my typing speed in a predictable fashion. If I write [p], after closing the tag it writes [/p] after it and sticks the cursor in the middle.

I HATE Dreamweaver because it does exactly the opposite! It's nigh-unpredictable and means I have to go back and correct it.
Example:
Type '[div class="test"][p]Some test', and it will have properly nested the tags automatically - because it nested them as you typed. Do the same in Dreamweaver and it doesn't close the tags automatically, but even worse, if you then type, '[/' after, it'll complete the WRONG tag - the '[div]' tag. Give me a break!

Now KDE is available on Windows & Mac OS X.

So first we will have to think how people will shift from Win / Mac default environment to KDE environment on those operating systems.

This can happen if all the features that they get in those environments. They don't loose any functionality. They should not face major usability issues.

I've written an article on this subject for my website:

http://linuxadventures.net/installsetup/yeardesk.html

As a side note, it's my personal experience that KDE with Linux provides a computing experience that shares some perks with OS-X, namely ease of use and a DAMN smooth ride...but without having to blow a couple of thousand

Whilst it's true the Linux world's editors are lacking in comparison, there are many other tools ours beat

Personally I think KdenLive is the best video editor out there, GIMP the best graphics editor and Audacity can handle most audio editing. I admit we're not looking at software that can rival software that has a price tag of thousands of your preferred currency (with the exception of GIMP) but until someone from the video editing world comes into the Linux community, and is willing to point out what features are required...and musicians and producers alike get in on the act, then we're a bit stuck.


Apple's LogicPro audio suite is a good example, it has many controls, filters and adjustments, sound files ranging from vocal samples to realistic digital reproductions of instruments...and until someone sits down with every instrument and some DAMN good singers, a couple of guys from the industry and a HELL of a lot of free time...that will never come to pass.

Currently? I'd be looking into a WINE but for Mac apps, personally...

2handband wrote:I've written an article on this subject for my website:

http://linuxadventures.net/installsetup/yeardesk.html

Great article!

Thanks, that's high praise coming from a Kubuntu user! Most of them hate me...

Most Kubuntu users just froth at the mouth and scream bloody murder, don't take it to heart

Dante Ashton wrote:Most Kubuntu users just froth at the mouth and scream bloody murder, don't take it to heart

...ouch. Antagonistic much?

Dante Ashton wrote:Most Kubuntu users just froth at the mouth and scream bloody murder, don't take it to heart

We do? Where was I when this started? O.o

Ok, ok, SOME Kubuntu users froth at the mouth. Kubuntu isn't known as the best-loved of distros, after all, it has had SOME major problems that could of been resolved with a bit more love...

Madman wrote:

Dante Ashton wrote:Most Kubuntu users just froth at the mouth and scream bloody murder, don't take it to heart

We do? Where was I when this started? O.o

The frothing and screaming usually starts when they visit my website and read about how much I hate Ubuntu...

I prefer KDE over OSX, to the point where I paid an overzealous amount for my computer, and it now only has Linux and Win on it.

OSX has a definite hand-up in music software, which is why I originally started with OSX. However, I don't compose enough to warrant having OSX anymore. On graphics, I like my GIMP/Inkscape tagteam. After getting used to Gimp, I no longer feel drawn to Photoshop. I'm beginning to friendly up to Krita. On entertainment, ironically, I find Linux in general about level with OSX if you use WINE.

I find the UI for KDE better than OSX; OSX widgets are sub-par compared to plasma, and nothing about the UI can be customized - when you realize the dock takes a massive hunk of your screen for a glorified launcher/task manager you start to notice many other niggling form-over-function decisions. You can't maximize windows either. The system is also against single-window programs, breaking many programs into sometimes a half-dozen other windows - this gets quite frenetic. OSX is a bit lacking in window-management options, which is a shame since they make you use so many.

Window tabbing and effects are brilliant in KDE, and I find Oxygen just nicer in general. With OSX, many of my favorite Linux programs need to be beaten into place with ports, and they look terrible - ruining any aesthetic value the system has. OSX does have many nice smaller touches, but it's very bare-bones. Pretty ivory bones shone to a mirror-shine, but nonetheless just bones.

When you try to move out of the apple-sandbox and do more exotic things, you will get hit hard. For example, I could not find a way to simply "show hidden files". I found out others had this issue and I eventually had to resort to command-line, eventually making 2 scripts I would execute to hide/show hidden files. The system gets very ugly with you when you don't submit to limited options.

Many of the programs that are "must have" for OSX aren't cheap, if you play with a legal system. Major upgrades aren't free.

OSX does do some things much better; Never had a crash. not once. And the hardware integration is much tighter, pleasant when all the hotkeys on my keyboard work. You are less apprehensive buying the "top notch" apple gear like Magic mouse. I still want one, I just don't want it to not work. Some parts of the system are genuinely beautiful, and the dock is drop-dead gorgeous to look at. You don't worry about a button in the control panel being "dangerous". Programs with OSX-specific versions, like Firefox, or even Java-based apps, are all more tightly integrated with OSX out of the gate, and just run "better" or look nicer. I personally recommend OSX to family, because it is a fantastic easy-to-use system, and takes little effort to keep secure.

Readers Digest: Anything OSX will be a great, tight experience. The programs tend to be great. The system itself not customizable, and form overshadows function by a wide margin. Programs love sub-windows, and window management is lousy. If only a few programs on OSX ported to KDE, OSX -to me- would be rendered useless.

Dante Ashton wrote:...GIMP the best graphics editor...

I have worked 7 years with Photoshop (from v2.5), tried a lot of free/cheap graphics editors, and I say (from usability point of view) GIMP sucks hard on the user interface. And it is not just flawed, it is hopeless. GIMP is a good example where engineers designed the user interface. It is like Corel Draw having the zoom option on F3.
Right-click menu is always the same, never context sensitive. For example, when I have selected an area on a picture, I surely don't need a File menu, when I right-click on the selection but I would need useful tasks associated to selection. Graying out functions is an unknown feature in GIMP. If a function is not available, then it is left out from the menu/panel/window, so the inexperienced people have to magically figure out what to press or click to have that secret combination that triggers that hidden function (instead of showing as not available, so the poor fellow can fire up Google and have an answer in 5 seconds).

It would be the best to begin anew and learn from the experts. Adobe Lightroom is a good example. The rendering (and other calculation hungry tasks) is written in C, but the user interface is written in Lua and these are coupled together. This would reuse the working functions from GIMP, but it would allow the user interface to be very easily modified. The aim would be to allow even the artists to modify the user interface with a minimal effort (learning, coding), while experienced coders could try to modify the rendering.