mirsev wrote:So, if you write about someone's responsibility, don't forget about yours. Visitors of this forum are required to be productive. I agree. But so must

Not quite. All that's asked is to respect the Code of Conduct. It's just that. The poster you mention did not make any effort to do so.

And I believe that both groups, developers of KDE and maintainers of this forum, should accept and share their responsibility for mistakes inevitable in complex software. Just be kind.

Uhm, the forum staff has no affiliation with a specific group of KDE developers. The forums are for discussion and getting help, and they do a good job at it. But if someone posts rants that go against the Code of Conduct and the forum rules (which one accepted at the time of registration), they get reprimanded. Notice that I say "reprimanded", because in all this time serious actions (spammers excluded) were taken perhaps in one or two cases.

Maybe you should put a big fat sign on the forums first page that says: "If you want to complain about KDE4 go to [a place I don't know] - as we are not in charge of that!"

I don't now where you'd like to send frustaded users, if the KDE forum is not the right place for it.

Some forum moderator put an end to this unproductive, time wasting thread, PLEASE!!! Close it now!!!

I don't want to watch it any more, I don't want anything to do with it any more - BE GONE.

Hm, perhaps if I untick "notify me when a reply is posted" others are free to waste their time, but not me.

Cross fingers...

mirsev wrote:Working system, I think. If I'm not wrong, cfilorux updated the system which worked well. What should people expect when they are updating the system? Fighting with bugs? Filing bug reports? I think expecting old bugs fixed in a new release is more reasonable, isn't it?

That is the responsibility of distributions. If you have a distribution that has had a history of releasing early versions of software, as ubuntu has, then yes you should definitely check check the updates for major software when you switch from one major release of the distribution to the next (which is the only situation under which a distribution like ubuntu would change from KDE SC 3 to KDE SC 4 or KDE SC 4.x to KDE SC 4.x+1, for instance).

mirsev wrote:"You took the responsibility of developing the software for millions of people, but made no effort whatsoever to actually educate yourself about what you were doing or what the implications of your actions might be, then blame everyone else when it didn't go as you expect." That's not about you, perhaps, but it could be said about a developer who breaks functionality of previous versions of the software and releases the new version making people suffer where they did not even expect.

Except developers (of which I am not one except for a handful of minor patches) did make a huge effort to understand what they were doing and spread the word about what the implications of that would be. That some distributions ignored that, and that some users ignored their distributions, is not KDE's fault.

mirsev wrote:Just one example, on January 16, the bug was filed about impossibility to use distribution lists (or contact groups) after updating KDE. That annoyed some people who rely on this functionality of kmail.

Once again, this is an issue with distributions choosing to release versions of software that has well-publicized deficiencies. It was not secret before 4.4 was released that this was going to be an issue, but rather than using the 4.3 version of the program some distributions chose to ship the one with missing functionality. Others chose to stick with the fully-functional version. Similarly, there are well-publicized limitations in the initial release of kdepim4. Some distributions are going to stick with the working version by default (but perhaps provide the newer version as an alternative), while I am sure some distributions (probably including ubuntu if history is any indication) will force the incomplete version on users despite the warnings.

mirsev wrote:So, users might think they will get working distribution lists again in 4.4.3. Wrong! While the sending to distribution lists works now, nevertheless I can not create or modify these distribution lists. I reported that a few days ago. Nobody replied back from developers team.

If you use a distribution that has a history of pushing incomplete software on users, then you should expect this sort of thing. If you don't like it, switch distributions, or try to change your distribution's philosophy. Don't blame KDE for your choice in distributions.

Now there has been a lot of debate amongst KDE developers about whether this was the best move or not. I am not sure. But it is certainly a move that would not have hurt users had their distributions not wanted it to.

mirsev wrote:So, if you write about someone's responsibility, don't forget about yours.

I am sorry, but I have no responsibility for the decisions of KDE developers. I have no control whatsoever over such decisions.

mirsev wrote:Productivity includes also accepting responsibility, hearing people and trying to help them to recover from their frustration if it is caused by buggy application.

And in my experience developers do so.

mirsev wrote:And I believe that both groups, developers of KDE and maintainers of this forum, should accept and share their responsibility for mistakes inevitable in complex software. Just be kind.

No, here I disagree. People who have no control over the decisions that go into KDE can't have any responsibility for those decisions. Blaming people for decisions they had no part in is scapegoating, pure and simple. Moderators here on the forum have no more power than you do when it comes to KDE software. We do our best to help, but we cannot take responsibility for decisions made by other people.

samhain wrote:I don't now where you'd like to send frustaded users, if the KDE forum is not the right place for it.

Let me be clear: the KDE Community Forums aren't and will not ever be a place for mindless ranting. If you want to ask help in a polite way, you will be always welcome, instead.

I am so sorry because I didn't red everything but anyway.
I use KDE 4 because there are no more support for KDE 3 which IMO is (was) much better. I am KDE user from when KDE came out and all this years we waited for mature version and we got with KDE 3. And after that developers decided to take another 10 years that we will become happy again.
And KDE 4 became more and more Windows or Mac like. If I wanted Windows I will buy them, if I wanted Apple I will buy it. BTW I have I=mac at work and it works perfect.
What is the alternative? Xfce, GNOME? Fluxbox?...? We will see.

Thanks.

How, exactly is KDE 4 more "windos or mac like"?

TheBlackCat wrote:How, exactly is KDE 4 more "windos or mac like"?

It is bloated as Windows and try to be as Mac.

lumiwa wrote:

TheBlackCat wrote:How, exactly is KDE 4 more "windos or mac like"?

It is bloated as Windows and try to be as Mac.

no, it does not try to be as Mac, it gives you the choices to have it be what you wish it to be.

It would help make your point if you supported you statements:
- "it is bloated as Windows" because?
- "try to be as Mac", how?

Can someone please, PLEASE lock this thread? I've yet to see ANYTHING good come of it.

I suggest a new forum etiquette. The Arch community has a very effective forum, trolls, help vampires and such are weeded out more or less immediately. It is very solution oriented, perhaps too much for some - but then again you don't get stuff like this thread.

For your info:

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette

toad wrote:I suggest a new forum etiquette. The Arch community has a very effective forum, trolls, help vampires and such are weeded out more or less immediately. It is very solution oriented, perhaps too much for some - but then again you don't get stuff like this thread.

For your info:

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette

Duly noted. We do have a set of guidelines that we framed out about a year ago:
We thought about using it in unison with the KDE CoC. Although I agree, we need a few modifications to our policies.

toad wrote:I suggest a new forum etiquette. The Arch community has a very effective forum, trolls, help vampires and such are weeded out more or less immediately. It is very solution oriented, perhaps too much for some - but then again you don't get stuff like this thread.

For your info:

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette

Life is hard, but sometimes people moan and groan to hear themselves moan and groan; while others moan and groan because they genuinely do not know how frame a question. The hard part is differentiating between those two approaches.

Yes, you can kick someone to the curb and hope they never come back. The problem with that approach, is you end up with a reputation as an elitist t*rd. For some that's O.K., but when that rubs off on the product you are trying to support, you have a problem.

There are enough rules in the world and in this part, particularly. Leave it be, no more new rules. You don't like what someone has to say, you can either engage them and smother them with civility, or you can turn your back and just not answer. Your choice.

Locking threads that don't conform will only confirm some peoples view that KDE 4 developers will not listen to any criticism.(and before I get flamed I know this forum has no connection) Maybe a better idea would be to have a soapbox area, where people can whinge and whine, within reason.

We did consider that already. But the idea was dropped as we didn't see any positive aspects of having such an area. Hence, we decided to leave Discussions & Opinions as the 'soapbox' section for now.

Of course, we are fine with changes. If more users suggest it, we can setup such an area and move the concerned threads there.