I realize and understand that the KDE project is 99% volunteer driven. I also understand that those volunteers are pressed with regular daily activities just like I am. Some may work at a full time job. Some may go to university. Some may contribute by coding, others by documentation. Perhaps that group are the majority of those who post on this forum. I don't know. But I would guess that the majority of readers of this forum are users of the desktop and not primarily developers.

That said, I find it hard to believe the level of disdain some responders or posters seem to have toward anyone who expresses a dislike for the current status of the KDE project. Many posters are downright rude. As an example I would refer you to the post entitled "GOODBYE KDE." The person who wrote this was simply trying to communicate to whatever 'authorities' within the kde structure just why his dissatisfaction has led to his dismissal of the kde project from his computer. Instead of taking his comments in a proactive manner some contributers to this forum turned instead to ridiculing the poster for his lack of communication skills in English. They turned to insults instead of toward understanding. When the author questioned why they would 'attack the messenger' so to speak the posters then tried to be sly and cheeky and attempted to continually deflect.

This is unnecessary, unneeded and tragic. It does nothing to move the cause of the KDE desktop forward. I would just like to suggest that posters to the forum remember to adhere to the tenets of mutual respect that this forum was designed for and the kde project was founded for. let's stop attacking someone for how infrequently he/she posts to the forum as if that somehow makes their idea or complaint less valid!

One of the reasons I loved the kde group when I started using it in 1999 was because of how helpful the community was toward me as a new user. I could post my questions, however stupid or misguided and get a polite response. When I asked a question to the regular Linux community at large I got a far different response. Usually "RTFM" or something equally as charming. I was so new I didn't even know what that meant!

Let's not lose the reputation of friendly, helpful people as community members of KDE. It's too hard to regain once lost!

By the way, I happen to agree with the author of "GOODBYE KDE" to some degree... I have been waiting for a long time for the 'administrator' button to be put back on certain kde apps where root passwords are needed. I have kde on my laptop and can't even use kdm for this reason.

Look forward to your replies to my post!

mshelby wrote:That said, I find it hard to believe the level of disdain some responders or posters seem to have toward anyone who expresses a dislike for the current status of the KDE project.

I speak for myself, but there are two reasons I didn't like the post, and neither had to do with the English or the person itself:

1. The tone of some commenters (not the original poster, however) that went rather close to breaching the Code of Conduct;
2. The fact that the person registered and posted a "goodbye" message, which was not the best way to present his views.

I don't have anything personally against people who criticize KDE. My only concern is that the CoC and the forum rules are respected.

someone for how infrequently he/she posts to the forum as if that somehow makes their idea or complaint less valid!

It makes things worse, I disagree with you here. The forum is a place to discuss, offer and give help. Making the first post a semi-rant, no matter how reasonable it is, it's not the best grounds to start a civil discussion.
So, yes, first impressions do matter.

to be put back on certain kde apps where root passwords are needed. I have kde on my laptop and can't even use kdm for this reason.

A bit OT but for KDM it's fixed in trunk, so it'll be in 4.5.

Hey thanks for the reply. I can agree with your "first impressions" comment. Glad to hear that the "admin" or "root access" issue is finally being fixed. I think this is an example of a lot of people's issues with the KDE project. Seems it has lost it's focus on being useful and instead focused a little too much on being innovative. I love the KDE4 series, but I can see understand the frustration out there. I convinced my dad to try linux. He loves it finally. He loved kde for a long while, but finally had to give up on kde4 and go back to the 3.5.10 release. Now he uses Gnome most of the time. For him it's about function and being able to 'get things done' on his computer... go figure... Ha, ha!

mshelby wrote:As an example I would refer you to the post entitled "GOODBYE KDE." The person who wrote this was simply trying to communicate to whatever 'authorities' within the kde structure just why his dissatisfaction has led to his dismissal of the kde project from his computer. Instead of taking his comments in a proactive manner some contributers to this forum turned instead to ridiculing the poster for his lack of communication skills in English.

I just re-read the thread and didn't see anything like this. I may have missed it, or may have interpreted some of the posts differently. Can you provide specific examples?

Certainly this is a bad thing, but the people in that thread seemed to me to be doing their best to be helpful and get enough information to do solve the problems from some uncooperative users who refuse to offer enough information.

Most of the insults seemed to be from the people doing the rants in my opinion, including one accusing KDE developers of being in a Microsoft-funded conspiracy to destroy KDE. I think the commenters were frankly far more patient in that thread than some of the pretty uncivil ranters deserved.

mshelby wrote:When the author questioned why they would 'attack the messenger' so to speak the posters then tried to be sly and cheeky and attempted to continually deflect.

Once again, certainly this is not productive behavior, but I don't recall seeing this except to the extent that: people asked some of the ranters to follow the code of conduct, and some of the people (me included) criticized some of the ranters for not making any effort to resolve their problems or get assistance before leaving KDE, or even have time to do a little bit of reading about KDE, but did have the time to register on the forum and post an extended rant (totally lacking useful details) about their trouble.

mshelby wrote:let's stop attacking someone for how infrequently he/she posts to the forum as if that somehow makes their idea or complaint less valid!

If their complaint is "I can't get KDE to work", but they have made no serious effort to get KDE working, then I think that is a valid grounds for criticizing their position. Same with "I don't understand KDE" when they have made no effort to learn about it. I don't think it is rude to suggest someone ask for help before throwing in the towel and giving up, especially when they are willing to spend the effort to join the forums and write quite a bit on it.

mshelby wrote:One of the reasons I loved the kde group when I started using it in 1999 was because of how helpful the community was toward me as a new user. I could post my questions, however stupid or misguided and get a polite response. When I asked a question to the regular Linux community at large I got a far different response. Usually "RTFM" or something equally as charming. I was so new I didn't even know what that meant!

Which is exactly what we asked the ranters to do, but which they explicitly refused to do. One even insulted us, and the entire forum, just for suggesting it.

I agree we need to be helpful, but when someone does not want our help even when we offer it then I think that does very much affect their credibility. It indicates they are not serious about getting KDE working well for them, which means their opinions on how well KDE works hold less weight. If they weren't willing to ask for help here (even though they are willing to post here) or read any of the documentation available to them, I think that says something about how much effort they were willing to expend on getting things working.

What irritates me is that people don't even try to understand what the developers have been yelling at the tops of their voices, then complain about what they are doing. The developers have chosen a different direction to go in. Understand that direction, and either wait patiently for bugs (that are NOT the developers' faults) to be fixed if you like the new direction or go use something else if you don't.

Having looked over that post, I would say there was a great deal more respect and maturity in many of the replies than there was in the original post. EDIT: I'll go a step further and say that the people complaining about KDE were completely disrespectful. If I was a forum moderator, I would have closed that thread half-way through the second page. The heated arguing and sheer malice is almost repulsive.

Hey, maybe the forum needs a section entitled "Rants" and then moderators can just move a discussion to that section once it takes a turn from 'helpful discussion' to 'ranting?'

Actually "Discussions & Opinions" serves this purpose. But I'd remove "& Opinions" from the title.

Madman wrote:... The developers have chosen a different direction to go in. Understand that direction, and either wait patiently for bugs (that are NOT the developers' faults) to be fixed if you like the new direction or go use something else if you don't. ...

I think that there are some folks who quite frankly don't understand what that direction is. And by "folks", I mean users. What makes sense in terms of programming, doesn't always make sense in terms of user expectations for functionality (Quick example: lack of a Stop button in Amarok). The poor state of documentation also is a contributor to that lack of understanding; I know sometimes you just have to make choices, and I'm not blaming any programmer for anything.

But the biggest problem I've seen, is an attitude of "my way or the highway" expressed by many posters. Yes, sometimes that is appropriate when the discussion goes no where; I've said or implied that myself a time or two . But that should never be a first response or even a second, even if a poster is in fact a flaming jerk. I've seen more of that here than in most forums that I attend, but to be fair, I've seen it elsewhere.

Some posters, also, are very adept at coaksing out flaming responses without themselves incurring the wrath of those who must defend the CoC