Thanks to all developers and people around there that work on this project! Phantastic software but currently not usable! Sorry to say that but I think it is necessary to make clear that the situation is absolutely annoying.

One reason is Akonadi but this is only an assumption. The parts do not work together! Not very easy to say but the KDE develpment team seems to have lost the overview! Who is the coordinator on all that? Who really talks to users about their problems?

I have been using KDE Linux since 1999 and I can say that the situation had been much better before! Yes I am using Debian Testing with KDE 4.4.4 but everyone within the community should know that people around the world

- often are forced to go forward one step to get the functionality they had one release backwards

- and if they go one step forwards they never can go back again!

Very important as well: I am a user that writes bug reports. I would like to help. Some times I am too set up to write everything very clear and in an objective way but I am really running out of time and motivation to do that any more. Why? It does not help to improve the situation!

Very sorry! May be some people can add their experience and someone in the coordination area of development can listen and try to find a a way to improve the situation.

I never switched back to Windows (7) but I really wonder if I should do that because when I try to use KDE productively the people I work together with start to laugh about my silly problems and quite often I am the brakesman

Regards, Martin

Moved this post to Discussions & Opinions.

I agree with your overall theme. Just who is on the "KDE Usability" team, and why aren't they more actively involved in surveying the user to find out his/her specific wants and needs. KDE is a wonderful desktop. The 4 series offers a lot of promise and I really like it... It just seems to lack direction , oversight and any kind of accountability.

Just who is on the "KDE Usability" team

Probably not enough people

and why aren't they more actively involved in surveying the user to find out his/her specific wants and needs.

See above.

If you think surveying would help, get surveying!

If you like, you can have KDE3.5 on Debian Testing. KDE4 will need some more years to get where KDE3 was 2 years ago.

I am sure, it is a lack of coordination. My experience shows: Developers are quite free in changing functionality. This does not work at all. Some times the architecture must be changed and for sure it must be possible to change functionality as well but the way e.g. in the area of...

- Akonadi -> this is alpha!

- KAdressbook -> absolutely no release management with the effect of data loss!

...is absolutely unacceptable!

Next point: The parts do not fit together! Another example:

Kprinter was changed completely. Now you cannot preview out of any application (try it e.g. with KMail or Konqueror which bot are critical in printing!) as you could before - why? This was a feature that did not work in any other OS. Teh nice functionality is gone because of changing the architecture and interfaces. This could have been done much more intelligent and user friendly!

Not talking about the enormous ammont of bugs...

To say it once more: I like KDE and I like, what KDE 4 looks like and what changes we can see, but the current status this is not user friendly at all!

Regards, Martin

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Sorry for the cynism, but I've given up on beleving KDE4 will reach beta stage in the next year. I just "lost" a test computer to KDEs "features": Debian testing, fresh install, first two reboots work OK, then functionality started to vanish: knetworkanager refuses to work, graphic errors show up, "greying" got "greening" of windows etc. etc., just by reboting the computer. Problems go away when I delete ~/.kde - but come back after a few reboots.

@samhain:

Seriously, you are reaching a very unhelpful stage. I just looked over your current posts. And i don't see anything helpful nor positive in it.
This is place is of course a place to give your opinion, and unfortunately there ARE unhappy users. They always will. That is fine. And good to know about problems. Even venting frustrations is fine to some extend. We are also trying to give those with problems a right direction so they could be heard or at least solve their problems.
But using this area just for cynism (i would call it like that, 158 of 162 posts from you are here) is not the way to go, not talking about the overall tone of your posts.
You really could be a bit more constructive, maybe even be helpful. Posts like yours are a reason why developers don't even visit this area. So every feedback is going into a hole. Is that what you want? I don't hope so.

From what i read you seem to be using KDE3.x which is fine. And you are not alone. You might want to search for users having problems with it and try to help them. Hell, you could even request a dedicated KDE3.x area if you think that might be useful.
This is what i would call investing your time meaningful.
But what you are doing now since some time is just a slap in the face of everyone trying their best to write this software and supporting users with their problems. Nothing is perfect, but being respectful makes many things easier. Think of that.

Hi neverendingo

neverendingo wrote:@samhain:

Seriously, you are reaching a very unhelpful stage. I just looked over your current posts. And i don't see anything helpful nor positive in it.
This is place is of course a place to give your opinion, and unfortunately there ARE unhappy users. They always will.

(...)

But what you are doing now since some time is just a slap in the face of everyone trying their best to write this software and supporting users with their problems. Nothing is perfect, but being respectful makes many things easier. Think of that.

So far your answer to samhain. But what is the answer to my statement? I mean, I really try hard to keep my system running - out of the perspective of a normal user.

But yes, it is very difficult and effects like described by samhain are real and not seldom. In my case every third or forth time I boot, there is no X login and then it works again. Reason - no idea! Update in between? No! This is really curious and annoying!

Think of what I wrote above! Where is the overall coordination? How does the development involve the users? What about the release management?

I as a user currently have no idea how to help to improve the situation - neither mine nor the one of the whole project. A lot of the bug reports I wrote did not help, either know problems that are not solved or no reaction. Very seldom a fast solution! How can you expect users to react in a patient way?

And yes, I can proove, that the developers ignore user requirements. Some more examples:

- Amarok! They just killed the ability to listen to audio cds and say: this is "old fashioned" functionality no longer needed!

- konqueror/dolphin: Can you tell me where the improvement is? I cannot see one when I compare the two applications from the users perspective. But the development of konqueror does not show any imporvement any more, it seems to be stopped.

...and so on! I could find many more examples. A pity!

Regards, Martin

neverindgo's post summed it up really well. *claps*

I'm sure your X bug is annoying and frustrating but what is posting here meant to acheive?

Most of the KDE developers are just normal people like you and me, they don't have to do anything, and certainly shouldn't have to put up with any kind of abuse. I'm a developer, and I can't stand getting 'demands' from users (not you in this case) effectively demanding my free time and giving me nothing in return.

As for your "proof" that developer's ignore user's requirements:

If thousands of people want something, one of those people will code it. The very nature of FOSS means it's always meeting the majority of user requirements.

mhl wrote:So far your answer to samhain. But what is the answer to my statement? I mean, I really try hard to keep my system running - out of the perspective of a normal user.

Of course, as i said, no ideal situation for you, yes. So the best way is to find a way to nail it down.

mhl wrote:But yes, it is very difficult and effects like described by samhain are real and not seldom. In my case every third or forth time I boot, there is no X login and then it works again. Reason - no idea! Update in between? No! This is really curious and annoying!

Did you already post any X server logs somewhere? Because in case you don't even get a X login, this might also be related and not KDE at all. Or maybe KDM.
So look into cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log or ~/.xsession-errors and look for errors (in the former they start with EE)
Note: If you want to report something like that, open another topic in the appropriate area so it can be found more easily and is not mixed with a discussion.

mhl wrote:Think of what I wrote above! Where is the overall coordination? How does the development involve the users? What about the release management?

Like david_edmundson already wrote, the majority usually decides, and then it is to someone being willing to implement it in their free time.
As for project coordination, there is not really an overall KDE project coordinator. Every subproject has a maintainer who is responsible for what goes in and what not.
But how are users involved? There is more than one way. The most obvious, if you want something, suggest it, write a patch and send it to the maintainer or project's mailinglist.
But not everyone is a coder. You could also use brainstorm to get some feedback from other users to see if you are alone or the majority is on your side (which doesn't automatically mean it will be implemented, but it is worth a shot). The same can be fullfilled by using bugs.kde.org and submitting a wishlist item. Other users can vote on that as well.

But most importantly of all, plain complaining doesn't bring you anywhere. Reasonable arguments, respect and patience always brings you further.

mhl wrote:I as a user currently have no idea how to help to improve the situation - neither mine nor the one of the whole project. A lot of the bug reports I wrote did not help, either know problems that are not solved or no reaction. Very seldom a fast solution! How can you expect users to react in a patient way?

As for the X issues, this seems to be something that is very hard to nail down. So, the more information you can provide, the more likely it is a solution can be found. And yes, a fast solution is not always possible because of that.
Just heard one day that one of the PIM devs is working now for 4 months on ONE bug to nail it down and finally coming to a stage where he might has get it... Sad, but reality. Such bugs exist.

mhl wrote:And yes, I can proove, that the developers ignore user requirements. Some more examples:

- Amarok! They just killed the ability to listen to audio cds and say: this is "old fashioned" functionality no longer needed!

- konqueror/dolphin: Can you tell me where the improvement is? I cannot see one when I compare the two applications from the users perspective. But the development of konqueror does not show any imporvement any more, it seems to be stopped.

That also might be because konqueror itself is just a kpart wrapper, real improvements go into those and are mostly in the back

mhl wrote:...and so on! I could find many more examples. A pity!

Regards, Martin

Like i stated, if you want to have your problem solved, open a new topic where it fits best, give some input and a good description and we might be able to come up with a solution.

Hi David,

I think you didn't get it! If you read what I posted at the beginning you will realize that I do not complain about a lack of functionality but about throwing away functionality or even "data" without asking if this is used by thousands of user (lucky us!) out there! The release policy I talked about as well but did I write anything abut "more functionality"?

And one more point: Developper or not, teh question is how KDE 4 can be improved so that it will become successful. No success without satisfied users!

Regards, Martin

(using KDE Linux since 1999!)

mhl wrote:Hi David,

I think you didn't get it! If you read what I posted at the beginning you will realize that I do not complain about a lack of functionality but about throwing away functionality or even "data" without asking if this is used by thousands of user (lucky us!) out there! The release policy I talked about as well but did I write anything abut "more functionality"?

And one more point: Developper or not, teh question is how KDE 4 can be improved so that it will become successful. No success without satisfied users!

I am not sure I understand the problem, Akonadi is not needed for anything besides kaddressbook for KDE 4.4. And the whole point of akonadi is to make KDE PIM more integrated and work better together.

Hi blackcat,

I am not sure I understand the problem, Akonadi is not needed for anything besides kaddressbook for KDE 4.4. And the whole point of akonadi is to make KDE PIM more integrated and work better together.

I can only say: I do not understand the problem either! In case of kaddressbook I understood exactly what Akonadi was designed for. Very good idea but a. it should not have been released like that and b. kaddressbook is central part of KDE PIM so why do you write "I do not understand the problem" and "besides kaddressbook" Akonadi is no necessary part of KDE 4.4. KDE PIM is a central part of KDE and the addressbook has always been and still is a central part of KDE PIM. So the conclusion is: kaddressbook should never be releases like it was with reduced functionality (or at least give us a migration path!) and severe bugs. (By the way you are wrong: Akonadi is used for kalender as well and this does not work either even in worse way: calender entries are eliminated after having entered!)

But again: This posting is not to complain about single bugs, what I try to make clear is that there is a lack of coordination in the whole project!. And I don not write this to tell you that I am angry about the developers. I am confused and tired and really deranged about the fact that open source is developped like that. For a very long period we all thought that open source development is a model that is much better than the one that Microsoft or Apples uses. No I find out that in this situation within the "KDE development system" tends to act very similar.

My question is: What can we do to improve the situation? How can the priorisation be refocussed to fulfill user neads?

No I find out that in this situation within the "KDE development system" tends to act very similar.

Yes, but it's a KDE-only problem. I do not know any single other opensource project that ever forced/forces alphaware on the user and abandoned the stable version (Yes, I know, nobody told etc. etc.).

My question is: What can we do to improve the situation? How can the priorisation be refocussed to fulfill user neads?

Just be patient, in a year or two the software will probably reach rc1 status. That is, after the single point of failtures have bitten a grat amount of users, which has not jet happened (e.g. Akonadi is on it's best way to do this).

The problem is, there are too few developers working on too many open ends - just look at the buiglist. And worse, the koordination is done technic-centered and user-centered. And to top it, it's quite impossible to change it, even if the project management wanted to (remember "The Mythical Man-Month"?) Where to get more developers? Don't know ... it's forseeable that the same struggle will come up with QT5.