thedayofcondor wrote:I probably sounded more harsh than I wanted to be.

The problem wasn't that you sounded too harsh. It was the lack of constructive criticism. If you look at this thread, you'll see that the author not only stated what was bad, but also explained why and suggested improvements. See the difference?

In KDE4, things are not yet at this point, I know they will be. One of the things I hate the most is the missing "show desktop" function, replaced with "show dashboard".

You should have included examples like this one in your first post. Then people wouldn't call your thread useless, but rather explain that there is a widget that does exactly what you want.

Eclipse crashing is eclipse fault? Eclipse crashes ONLY is launched from the plasma. It works from the console, from KDE3.x, from gnome. It crashes if launched from plasma.

Sounds weird. So it doesn't crash if you launch it from KRunner or Kickoff in KDE4? Because it sounds like a KDE4 problem.

Folderview is just a drawer in my desk - but is do not want a drawer, i want my desk back.

You can set Folderview as your "desktop" if you want. It acts pretty much like the desktop in KDE3.

The taskbar is just not ready... too basic for my needs... it just does not cope with the amount of windows I have usually opened

True. There's a new taskbar in development that let's you group tasks. It even supports drag and drop, something you couldn't do in KDE3.
Multiple rows? Yes.

I still cannot monitor the usage of my cpu and network.

There is one in trunk that works pretty well IMO. Do you want a screenshot?

thedayofcondor wrote:Has not this "sorting out the audio" been done over and over, is introducing another framework really necessary?

A common misconception: Phonon is an API, not a multimedia framework.

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this not introduce additional latency to the audio?

No, since the playing is done by the framework used to implement the Phonon backend which is currently being used.

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this be the DEFINITIVE one, or will I have just to install ANOTHER sound system, and we will end up with an app using xine, one gstreamer, one alsa directly oss esd etc etc AND now new apps needing phonon?

No, unless one installs and selects a backend which is not based on one of the systems in your list.

thedayofcondor wrote:Will not this force gnome users to bring up the entire phonon system when they load a kde app just to make it beep?

That is like saying "bring up the entire GStreamer system just to make it beep".

Cheers,
_

Look, I read the kde forums over and over... and I always get the same answers, and i am not satisfied.

May-c and and a_skoa - now in gnome I will have to bring up phonon AND gstreamer (or xine or whatever I use as backend). And linux is not kde, kde is a gui, and should not have anything to do with the audio.
[/quote="May-c""]
This is the Definitive one for kde4"[/quote]
Definitive or for kde4? This does not sound the same to me.

aRTS is a good example of what kde was able to do with audio in the past, I am sure phonon will be WAY better, but not everyone will use it.

There are other desktops environment in use, so we will end up with an ADDITIONAL sound system, the old sound systems will stay all in place as ONLY kde application will use it - and, sorry to say, the most successful Open Source applications are gnome based.

Hans

Hans wrote:the author not only stated what was bad

I think I stated my point clearly:
KDE4 it is unstable, and has no right to be called anything more than alpha, when the rest of the linux community is very careful with the versioning (most application are still in the 0.x version after years)

Kde has published alphas, betas, release candidates and final versions.I know the situation, any new user will not, they will install KDE4.1.2, be all oh wow, and then the confusion, becoming irritated after a while, and after the first 2/3 crashes they will leave. Not kde. They will leave linux (most users are unable to see the difference between linux and kde).

Second point I made, kde is marketing itself as something new, but what I see with the dashboard and the system settings it is just a copy of macos (if you ever used macos you will know what i mean). Which is not a bad think by itself.
But:
1) do not try to sell it to me as innovative
2) it seriously lacks in usability - the old three vies on the side was better.
Is this not constructive? Maybe not, i do not have any real alternative to "bring it back as it was", there was nothing wrong with it, do you want to change it, improve it, and do not do something because apple is doing it that way and you are anti ms.

I know there is a show desktop plasmoid - but it is an "addon", I cannot bind it to a key. If I have to grab my mouse to click on it, I can minimize the applications as well. There are hundreds of weird possible action in kwin/plasma (move window to a different desktop while rotating resizing and making transparent), not putting a show desktop is done on purpose, to impose a philosophy.
Folderview is just another workaround to a kde limitation - lets design a completely unusable desktop, and then cover it with a folderview- using folderview is exactly the same that opening konqueror and yes, I can have conqueror full screen as well!

thedayofcondor wrote:May-c and and a_skoa - now in gnome I will have to bring up phonon AND gstreamer (or xine or whatever I use as backend).

What precisely do you think Phonon is, and how "big" do you think it is compared to GStreamer or Xine (or aRts)?

thedayofcondor wrote:Look, I read the kde forums over and over... and I always get the same answers, and i am not satisfied.

May-c and and a_skoa - now in gnome I will have to bring up phonon AND gstreamer (or xine or whatever I use as backend).

You seem to still have the impression that Phonon is a different audio system, but it isn't.
Better think about it as a C++/Qt Binding of GStreamer on Linux, like gstreamermm being a C++/GLib Binding.

That's not totally accurate either since it can for example also be a binding to DirectShow on Windows, but it is a lot closer than thinking about it as another playback framework.

thedayofcondor wrote:And linux is not kde, kde is a gui, and should not have anything to do with the audio.

Which is exactly why Phonon is not yet another multimedia framework, but an API for accessing such a framework.

thedayofcondor wrote:There are other desktops environment in use, so we will end up with an ADDITIONAL sound system...

No, see above.

thedayofcondor wrote:...the old sound systems will stay all in place as ONLY kde application will use it

Why would the distributor, administrator or user explicitly configure a different sound system for KDE applications?

and, sorry to say, the most successful Open Source applications are gnome based.

Evolution and which others?

Cheers,
_

thedayofcondor wrote:I think I stated my point clearly:
KDE4 it is unstable, and has no right to be called anything more than alpha, when the rest of the linux community is very careful with the versioning (most application are still in the 0.x version after years)

OK, that's your opinion. But with such vague information, no one will really care. It's like posting a thread saying "The Oxygen style is awful". That may be my opinion, but what's the purpose of such a post?

I can also write a thread saying "The Oxygen buttons are too small, making it difficult to press them (especially if you use a touchpad). It's also hard to distinguish the active window from the rest if you don't have shadows enabled." Which statement do you think is most useful?

If you experience a crash and want to help the developers, posting a bug report is the way to go.

2) it seriously lacks in usability - the old three vies on the side was better.

Better - in terms of usability? Or because you're used to it?
(By the way, I prefer KControl to System Settings too)

I cannot bind it to a key.

You'll be able to do it in the future. If you can't wait, see this post.

Folderview is just another workaround to a kde limitation - lets design a completely unusable desktop, and then cover it with a folderview- using folderview is exactly the same that opening konqueror and yes, I can have conqueror full screen as well!

Now you just sound confused. Workaround? Limitation?! I would say that Plasma is much more flexible than the old KDE3 desktop. The old desktop is pretty much a fullscreen Konqueror, yes. Plasma allows you to use your desktop that way if you want to. How exactly is this a limitation?

By the way, here's the screenshot I promised you:



Unfortunately no comic strip.

I could try to find out how big phonon is, probably not much as it is some sort of "converter" (this reminds me more and more Java, let publish a coherent API and let the VM take care of the implementation specific details)

I would like to reverse the question, can be phonon be used without KDE? Something like this would make sense independently from KDE, and the it could be used for everything (even if using kde style, naming conventions etc) and would make of it an interesting idea, leaving the success for a sound system not to be dependant on the applications using it, but for what they are really worth.
If, as I think, phonon is heavily relying on other kde libraries, this is really a shame.

I must admit my ignorance on the distinctions between
phonon (well, it is much clearer now)
gstreamer and xine
pulseaudio, esd and aRTS (sound daemons)
Alsa and oss

I have two tabs in the kde multimedia settings, one lets me chose a backend, the other one has option like pulseaudio or esd (and direct acces to the soundcard I think)

About gnome, most applications I have installed seems to be linked with libgnome (try to removing it from your system and you will see what you have to give away)

Phonon is part of Qt, and last time I checked Qt isn't dependent on KDE.
Ars technica wrote a little bit about it here.

thedayofcondor wrote:About gnome, most applications I have installed seems to be linked with libgnome (try to removing it from your system and you will see what you have to give away)

Err...I don't have libgnome installed and I'm not missing a thing. :P

hans]OK, that's your opinion. But with such vague information, no one will really care. It's like posting a thread saying "The Oxygen style is awful". That may be my opinion, but what's the purpose of such a post?[/quote]
This forum is called opinions!
[quote=hans]
I can also write a thread saying "The Oxygen buttons are too small, making it difficult to press them (especially if you use a touchpad). It's also hard to distinguish the active window from the rest if you don't have shadows enabled."
[/quote]
I do not call this an opinion, but an usability issue - which should be followed by an RFE.

As I said, this is not only MY opinion, but is shared by many other users. KDE declaring itself out of beta stage is a mistake and it is misleading, and it is doing a lot of harm to the linux community.I know nothing can be done at this point, but please tell me you would not declare KDE4 as "production ready". I cannot be constructive about it, there is no way to be on such an issue.

Folderview - i know what you mean, however the current status of it is not usable. I am not used cluttering my virtual desktop, but i use as a temporary location when i am working on something. i like the plasmoids a lot, but for me not being able to drag a document on the desktop is an usability issue, which could have been avoided in the first place. Also, i do not know how folder view is supposed to work, as it is "on top" of the desktop icons, and you lose access to the desktop contextual menu - this is what i mean with "workaround to a plasma limitation".
I know this is still in development, but other operating systems have something similar to plasmoids AND normal files on the desktop, if you want your desktop free you just do not put files in it.
I just cannot see why it cannot be done - it looks a KDE team arbitrary choice, exactly as not supplying a minimise all/show desktop - and this is what I am criticising about kde: these things CAN be done with a minimal effort, loads of people are complaining about them, and I have the distinct impression they were omitted on purpose, and this is **** me off.
Telling me "one day you will be able to do it" is not satisfactory enough for me. This is an opinion, which should be followed by a discussion - like for phonon, I expressed my concerns, and now I am (almost) convinced phonon it is the way to go.

What I am expecting from a discussion following an opinion is someone telling me "i know it is hard to get used to it, but we could not do it because of xyz, which would have prevented us to do zyx, our final goal, please be patient"

About systemsettings, i find the old way more immediate. First of all the go back thing is used only in systemsettings, making it inconsistent with other applications (with the exception of browsers maybe), also, it requires one additional mouse click compared to the old way (i am not that fussy about it, is not something you are supposed to use 8 hours a day).
What is happening to me, I find natural to close the window to go back instead of clicking the back arrow, as my brain gets the distinct impression the setting page I am using it is "on top" of the main window (maybe a legacy in my mind from the windows control panel)

The screenshot looks wonderful - thank you a lot I cannot wait to put my hands on it! (but the logical choice seems to me to let the user drag systemmonitors sensors on the desktop)

As you mentioned the kde themes, I still have to find one I like - what is concerning me the most is it is not clear at all when a window is "requesting attention" - most of the themes have something like a faint halo light, which I find really hard to notice (it is not catching my attention as it should)

As a last note, I will say I cannot stand the "active area" on the top right of the screen, its function should be moved on the desktop contextual menu (most of them are, with the exclusion of the zoom) as i really do not see any point in it - do you know if there is any plan of making it movable/resizeble/removable?[hr]
[quote="kubicle wrote:Err...I don't have libgnome installed and I'm not missing a thing. :P

Firefox and thunderbird are the first to go on mine, followed by the mysql gui, and eclipse (because of swt-gnome, but maybe there is an alternative)[hr]

Hans wrote:Phonon is part of Qt, and last time I checked Qt isn't dependent on KDE.

Being part of Qt is the reason gnome will never use it.

thedayofcondor wrote:The screenshot looks wonderful - thank you a lot I cannot wait to put my hands on it! (but the logical choice seems to me to let the user drag systemmonitors sensors on the desktop)

Glad you liked it; that was the result of ~3 minutes of tweaking.
You can read about how "drop stuff on your desktop" is handled by Plasma here.

As a last note, I will say I cannot stand the "active area" on the top right of the screen, its function should be moved on the desktop contextual menu (most of them are, with the exclusion of the zoom) as i really do not see any point in it - do you know if there is any plan of making it movable/resizeble/removable?

I suppose you're talking about the cashew . No, there's no plan to make it movable/removable as far as I know. However, you can exclude it if you make a custom Containment.

Fear not, there is also an easier way. Just follow the guide here (shameless advertisement ).

thedayofcondor wrote:

Hans wrote:Phonon is part of Qt, and last time I checked Qt isn't dependent on KDE.

Being part of Qt is the reason gnome will never use it.

I think you still don't get what Phonon is.

Let's say you're a Gnome user, and you use K3B, and you want it to play a sound once your DVD finished recording. On Gnome, you use Gstreamer. What do you think happens?

K3B says, "Phonon, I need to play this file: done.ogg"
"Ok," says Phonon. "Let me check how to do that."
Phonon then takes a look at the configuration, and sees that it should use Gstreamer.
"Gstreamer," calls Phonon, "I need you to play `done.ogg'"
And so Gstreamer plays the file.

That's all Phonon does - it translates what some application wants to do into what the language the backend understands.

thedayofcondor wrote:

kubicle wrote:Err...I don't have libgnome installed and I'm not missing a thing. :P

Firefox and thunderbird are the first to go on mine, followed by the mysql gui, and eclipse (because of swt-gnome, but maybe there is an alternative)[hr]

I could install those without installing libgnome (none of them depend on gnome...well apart from swt-gnome). What distribution are you using?

EDIT: Hmm...you probably have "treat recommended packages as dependencies" set in your package manager (I think it's the default nowadays, at least in Debian/Ubuntu)...recommends are not dependencies, though.

Sorry, my fault, I was talking about gnome, I meant libgtk (the Qt of Gnome)
I tend to identify KDE/Qt and Gnome/GTK, which is not technically true.

thedayofcondor wrote:Sorry, my fault, I was talking about gnome, I meant libgtk (the Qt of Gnome)
I tend to identify KDE/Qt and Gnome/GTK, which is not technically true.

That is really a big difference. You are wrong that moste famous software is written in GTK. Qt has also a impressive list of great software: Skype, Googleearth, Webkit or Opera for example. If you use GTK or Qt is just a matter of taste.

[quote='thedayofcondor']
I could try to find out how big phonon is, probably not much as it is some sort of "converter" (this reminds me more and more Java, let publish a coherent API and let the VM take care of the implementation specific details)
[/quote]
I think programming in Java is fun... but to compare an api with a vm is really wrong. Qt is really great and a lot of functionality reminds me of java. There are list implementations, Strings and so on. Using C++ with STL is a pain in the **** imho. Another nice thing is that Qt uses "guarded pointers (QPointer) that are automatically set to 0 when the referenced object is destroyed, unlike normal C++ pointers which become dangling pointers when their objects are destroyed". So Qt makes the life of a programmer much easier...

Think I got too offtopic here :-S