Sorry about this post, I do not want to offend anyone, of cause a flame war... I am just putting down my impressions, these are shared by most of the people I work with so please do not shoot the messenger!

The first thing it comes to my mind is... why is the KDE team trying to produce an ugly version of macos? The way systemsettings are organised... the dashboard... I am just waiting for the right mouse button to stop working!

I do not like windows, but I have to use it all day long, and there is nothing worse than getting home and have to change the way you interact with your computer. I was able to configure KDE3 to behave like windows, but was snappier, more stable, more efficient... I know one day KDE4 will be the same, but this should have been a priority.

Second thing... I know this is has been repeated over and over... but as a software developer I would never call KDE 4.1.2 anything more than an alpha version (maybe a beta if I am really in a bright mood). There are SO many things not implemented... SO many things misplaced... SO many bugs (konqueror crashing half of the times I close a tab, Eclipse crashes after 10 seconds if launched from plasma, i keep loosing settings here and there, the audio system is just ridiculous etc). I am actually ashamed to show my linux desktop to people, I got the same reaction from everyone... oh... it looks great... with the same look they have when you "pimp your ride", same old car 15yo puffing black smoke, but with neon on the weeks, knightrider's scrolling led on the front etc...

I have the impression most of the work that has been done it was just "to show off", without thinking to a real use for it... great, I can resize and rotate the icons in the desktop, but do I really need it? What's the point ins having 20 icons all different sizes on the desktop, without a way to align them, make all the same size...

Plasmoids are great, the idea behind them I mean, too bad there is not a single one really useful... and if you get one badly written, it will crash the entire desktop... (this looks like a serious design flaw)

Applications? Most application are being redesigned from ground up, to use the new libraries...and I cannot find a singe one taking real advantage from the new features...
I will take ksysguard as an example, first thing I tried was to drag a sensor on the desktop, that would have been cool... nothing...

Improvements? I see things progressing every day... but every time something gets fixed, something else breaks, and the overall progress is extremely slow... I can understand this happening on KDE3... I have never seen the code, but I assume it is built patch over patch, year after year, improving and adding corrupting the initial design... but KDE4 is a brand new system these sort of things should not happen!

Believe me, I think some of the ideas behind KDE4 are great, I just do not see a plan, I think the priorities are all messed up and I only see developers adding eye candies hoping someone will find an use for them...

You don't see a plan because you are misinformed. Please do not write such posts if your not willing to read up on it first. What is your intention with this post?
What do you want to actually achieve with this post?
You do not state anything clearly, you do not back up anything with arguments and examples, you do not give any suggestions for improvements.

Sorry, but this post is completely useless.

thedayofcondor wrote:The first thing it comes to my mind is... why is the KDE team trying to produce an ugly version of macos? The way systemsettings are organised... the dashboard... I am just waiting for the right mouse button to stop working!

System Settings exists in KDE3 too (default in Kubuntu).
What's wrong with the dashboard?

I do not like windows, but I have to use it all day long, and there is nothing worse than getting home and have to change the way you interact with your computer. I was able to configure KDE3 to behave like windows, but was snappier, more stable, more efficient... I know one day KDE4 will be the same, but this should have been a priority.

Priority? To make things feel Windows? Nah. KDE isn't a Windows clone, and I'm sure you already know that. And what exactly couldn't you configure in KDE4 that you can in KDE3 to make it feel more like Windows?

There are SO many things not implemented... SO many things misplaced...

Such as?

SO many bugs (konqueror crashing half of the times I close a tab, Eclipse crashes after 10 seconds if launched from plasma, i keep loosing settings here and there, the audio system is just ridiculous etc).

So Eclipse crashes. What has it to do with Plasma or KDE? :undecided:

I have the impression most of the work that has been done it was just "to show off", without thinking to a real use for it... great, I can resize and rotate the icons in the desktop, but do I really need it? What's the point ins having 20 icons all different sizes on the desktop, without a way to align them, make all the same size...

Have you tried Folderview? Actually, Aaron announced the death of desktop icons in Plasma a while ago.

Plasmoids are great, the idea behind them I mean, too bad there is not a single one really useful... and if you get one badly written, it will crash the entire desktop... (this looks like a serious design flaw)

So you don't like the taskbar or system tray either? Then how about the cute Pager?

Applications? Most application are being redesigned from ground up, to use the new libraries...and I cannot find a singe one taking real advantage from the new features...

Amarok2 takes advantage of Plasma and Phonon, just to name one application. I'm sure you can find more examples if you really look for it.

Improvements? I see things progressing every day... but every time something gets fixed, something else breaks, and the overall progress is extremely slow...

Sometimes you have to take a step backward in order to leap forward.
Slow? Maybe I have very a good memory, but I remember Plasma being called vaporware not very long time ago. (Sure it wasn't recently either, but you get my point).

but KDE4 is a brand new system these sort of things should not happen!

KDE4 is brand new and hasn't received the same level of polishing as the 3.5.x series. Have you ever tried KDE 3.0?

Believe me, I think some of the ideas behind KDE4 are great, I just do not see a plan, I think the priorities are all messed up and I only see developers adding eye candies hoping someone will find an use for them...

This is not how it works. If I want to add eyecandy to KDE, I'm welcome to do so. No one should yell at me for not working on Konqueror instead. You know why? Because I'm free to do what I want. I do what I enjoy doing, or else I wouldn't contribute to KDE at all.

You should try to put yourself in the shoes of the developers before writing such post. Would you be happy if I said"I think your priorities are all messed up. Why waste time complaining here instead of fixing the bugs?". Probably not.

If a user told you that your application have "SO many things not implanted, SO many things misplaced, SO many bugs", would you know right away what you should fix? Probably not.

I apologize for sounding so harsh. KDE4 isn't perfect and I don't feel I have to defend it. It's just that most of the complaints by users I've seen have been closer to whining than constructive criticism. I know it wasn't your intention, but if you truly want to improve KDE, there are many better ways. You can start with explaining why things are bad in the 4.x series and report the crashes you've experienced.

Just to clarify, I'm not a developer and the things I've written are my personal feelings. And I use KDE 3.5.7.

thedayofcondor wrote:Believe me, I think some of the ideas behind KDE4 are great, I just do not see a plan, I think the priorities are all messed up and I only see developers adding eye candies hoping someone will find an use for them...

I sympathise with some of your points. Yes, there is still quite some stuff not implemented, the way Activities work for example. But saying that 4.1.2 is alpha quality is too harsh. Individual applications might be of alpha quality, but the overall framework - and that's what we're talking about in the case of KDE 4.1 - is much more stable than regular alpha releases. The way I see it 4.1 is a strong beta release with some rough spots and 4.2 will be the first true full release of the KDE 4 branch. Considering the difference between KDE 4 and 3, I must say the developers have done a stellar job at building a new desktop environment virtually from the ground up in a very short period of time.

As for KDE not having "a plan" I think you're just wrong. In my opinion KDE is one of the few big FLOSS projects with a strong vision and clear plan. I mean the whole environment is build up of clear frameworks (Phonon, Solid, Plasma, etc.) all with a well articulated vision and roadmap. I mean, just read the vision entries on the websites of the aforementioned projects to get an idea what's the plan of both the separate projects and KDE in general.

I'm not sure i'm in a good mood to answer this...
but, dude, you forgot to give *EXAMPLES*, I mean, how can we fix things if we don't know what's broken?
and what do you mean that a comic strip on your desktop is useless? ._.'

thedayofcondor wrote:Sorry about this post, I do not want to offend anyone, of cause a flame war... I am just putting down my impressions, these are shared by most of the people I work with so please do not shoot the messenger!...(snip)..

I see these kinds of posts frequently in the distro forums. Like your post, most are not specific to a single problem, supply no helpful information, and appear to be based mainly on personal opinion.

It is my observation that these posts arise because of a single misconceptions:

KDE4 works like KDE3 and/or should work like Windows.


Bases on that false assumptions some folks new to KDE4 ASSUME that the way to format the time display, for example, is the same in KDE4 as it is in KDE3. When it is not, and they don't bother to google the answer or ask someone who knows (i.e. get informed). Their first reaction is to post a flame or a claim that KDE4 (.1.2) is "beta" or even worse. Someone else has made the same assumption and chimes in with identical rants, also empty of useful content for developers to use.

KDE4 is NOT KDE3.

Instead of being sprinkled all over, presenting inconsistent interfaces to the users, KDE4 developers have done the logical thing and moved them all to the KDE control center (the screwdriver and wrench icon) and standardized them. Open KCC, double click on "Regional & Language" icon, and on the dialog that opens up click on the "Time & Dates" tab. On that tab is the Time Format combo box where you can set the time format. Simple isn't it.

Make KDE4 look and feel like KDE3? Sure. Right click on the menu button and chose "Switch to Classic Menu style". Want app icons on your desktop? Navigate through the menu structure till you find the app whose icon you want to place on the desktop. Then, hold the left mouse button down on it and drag it to the desktop and release it.

In January of 2007, just before KDE4 beta was released, a nice fellow began a series of articles at dot.kde.org that explained various apps that were introduced in KDE4 and explained how to use them. The similarities and differences between Konqueror and Dolphin were explained. Additional features of Dolphin were introduced and explained. What was also said was that Konqueror was not going away. I still see some folks occasionally making that accusation. :'(

This laptop is a new Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E/h laptop that came with VISTA Home Premium on it, which will stay until the warranty expires because Sony doesn't support Linux. It surprised me how similar and yet how different VISTA is from XP. Having to "authenticate" everything I do is a pain, and it interferes with application installations. Remove it? Why? I don't use VISTA that much. I hate it when I have to use the VISTA side. It has given me a BSOD and twice VISTA has "lost the display" and did a phantom reboot.

I put Mandriva 2009 Powerpack/KDE4.1.2 on this laptop in dual boot. This release of Mandriva is a superb distro, in fact the best I've ever run in 10+ years of using Linux! My experience with KDE4 is that it is stable, fast, powerful and beautiful. Easily it is the best desktop I have ever used, and I have been using a personal computer since 1978. I also took the time to learn how to use KDE4.

Now, it's possible that your hardware/distro/KDE4.1.2 combo doesn't work right. Rather than rant suppose you try identifying the specific problem you are having, collect the necessary information, and then ask one of the fine people on this forum for help. That tactic will be a LOT more useful that posting you did.

I probably sounded more harsh than I wanted to be.
However:

andre wrote: What do you want to actually achieve with this post?

Isn't this forum called Discussion and Opinions? I gave my opinion, what's wrong with that? You gave yours... however this is a forum to give opinions about KDE, not other users' posts, so your post is more a waste of space than mine .

I get your point, I should read more, can you please point me in the right direction supplying a link with a page clearly stating the KDE4 goals?

[quote=hans]System Settings exists in KDE3 too (default in Kubuntu).
What's wrong with the dashboard?[/quote]
Nothing wrong with any of them. Just stating they both are rip offs of macos. If this good or not? It is not my place to say.

I do not like Windows. I found the macos interface terrible (it just seems they want to be different for the sake of it). I loved the way KDE3 adapted to the user, giving him the ability to make it behave like windows to window users, like macos to macos users etc.

In KDE4, things are not yet at this point, I know they will be. One of the things I hate the most is the missing "show desktop" function, replaced with "show dashboard".

This is an *arbitrary* imposition on the user, they perform different functions. Showing the desktop is for accessing the icons AND hide all the windows, show dashboard JUST shows the icons.

And, as I said, I use Windows all the day long, like maybe 80% of the people on Earth (unfortunately), the graphical interface is a productivity tool - KDE is not there yet.

Eclipse crashing is eclipse fault? Eclipse crashes ONLY is launched from the plasma. It works from the console, from KDE3.x, from gnome. It crashes if launched from plasma.

Amarok taking *advantage* from the new interface? Amarok, like every other application, *uses* the new interface, I still ave to see the advantage.

About the general feeling... the things I hate about windows are the need to "install" everything.. the registry and all that ****... i want to open a folder and see what is inside, without anyone telling me i should not edit that particular folder's content.
I get the impression kde is moving in the same direction. The plasma desktop is an example, it is something existing only in "KDE mind", not linked to a folder, you can place things on it but not just drag a document. The desktop is the virtual representation of a desktop - my real desktop at work is a mess, paper everywhere, I can barely find the phone... this is my way, if my boss came inside and *forced* me to keep it clean, I would just find another job.
Folderview is just a drawer in my desk - but is do not want a drawer, i want my desk back.

hans wrote:Sometimes you have to take a step backward in order to leap forward

This is exactly what i mean with "lack of plan". I am a software engineer, If you build a framework and find yourself taking steps back after a certain point, it means you got your entire design wrong - your design is *not fit for purpose*. I was just not expecting this in KDE4, which should be build over the experience and the mistake of KDE3.

hans wrote:And I use KDE 3.5.7.

You seem do agree with me more than you disagree. I am using KDE4, I like it, I cannot get back, it *is* the right way forward, I am hooked now... I jst want to punch the wall every time i click somewhere and all my screen gets black, or all the kde components start cascading the crash and die one after the other, or respawning and immediately crashing like crazy - these are *deep flaws* with the architecture.

hans]So you don't like the taskbar or system tray either? Then how about the cute Pager?[/quote]
[quote="Tomaz wrote:what do you mean that a comic strip on your desktop is useless?

The taskbar is just not ready... too basic for my needs... it just does not cope with the amount of windows I have usually opened... the system tray is fine... and i do not use the pager (never had the need for multiple desktops, unless i use multiple monitors) and the comic strip is very cute .
What I would really like is some more advanced plasmoids - I still cannot monitor the usage of my cpu and network. There are a lot of them around, no one is satisfactory yet (i miss the ksysguard applet in my taskbar).

Tomaz wrote:but, dude, you forgot to give *EXAMPLES*, I mean, how can we fix things if we don't know what's broken?

I think kde4 has an issue tracker, just look there for the large number of things broken, including BASIC things like hotkeys, manually saving the session, phonon acting weird, plasma crashing etc.

GreyGeek wrote:I see these kinds of posts frequently in the distro forums. Like your post, most are not specific to a single problem, supply no helpful information, and appear to be based mainly on personal opinion.

This is not a place for bugs reports... and considering the fact there are MANY posts like mine, with people complaining "hey kde team, you are getting it wrong" must mean something.

GreyGeek wrote:Their first reaction is to post a flame or a claim that KDE4 (.1.2) is "beta" or even worse

My claim is because of the fact most of the things (hotkeys and audio just to mention two of them) seem to randomly stop working after a random amount of time, and i have to restart kde. Luckily enough, kde tends to solve these by itself randomly crashing completely (joking!!)

GreyGeek wrote: Make KDE4 look and feel like KDE3? Sure. Right click on the menu button and chose "Switch to Classic Menu style". Want app icons on your desktop? Navigate through the menu structure till you find the app whose icon you want to place on the desktop. Then, hold the left mouse button down on it and drag it to the desktop and release it.

Sorry, i cannot find "the do not crash every time i close a tab" checkbox - is this in system settings on in konqueror?

thedayofcondor wrote:In KDE4, things are not yet at this point, I know they will be. One of the things I hate the most is the missing "show desktop" function, replaced with "show dashboard".

There is still a "Show desktop" function. It's a widget and can be placed on your desktop or taskbar just like the "Show dashboard" widget.

This is a very negative thread... I remember some years back reading a similar vitriolic piece about how mozilla was dead... it read very much along the same lines: total rewrite was a terrible strategic decision; I hate you silly developers for ruining my favoutite app with your indulgent attitudes...

yes.. 2000 it was published http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/07/31/

Ah hindsight.

thedayofcondor wrote:
Amarok taking *advantage* from the new interface? Amarok, like every other application, *uses* the new interface, I still ave to see the advantage.

Depends on how you see it. It certainly takes advantage of Phonon as the backend for audio-playback, instead of one for xine, one for gstreamer and what not. If you prefer gstreamer instead of xine, change it in the Phonon settings and all of KDE can take advantage of it instead of having to fiddle with it in every program that may need audio playback. I call that taking advantage of the new technologies (granted, I'm not a big fan of Amarok 2 just yet...)

Or Digikam, that uses Marble to set/view where a picture was taken. And I assume K3B for KDE4 will take advantage of Solid to find out what cd-drives are present. Kontact will at one point use Akonadi (or maybe it does already...not sure on that point).

Somehow it feels like you only look at the surface of what KDE4 provides and not enough at what's under the hood.

Kryten2X4B wrote:Somehow it feels like you only look at the surface of what KDE4 provides and not enough at what's under the hood.

I think you are right... and I see the move to a better integration, better HAL etc... not sure about phonon, having an additional (possibly flawed) layer on top of other (possibly flawed) sound system, is an improvement!

I just do not want KDE to be more than it should be... adding additional layer is necessary to obtain certain goals, but I do not want to end up with a bloated system, we have to remember KDE it is (should be) just a GUI, and not taking over the entire system! I am already forced to do things "the microsoft way" half of my time, I do not want having to do things "the kde way" the other half

thedayofcondor wrote:I think you are right... and I see the move to a better integration, better HAL etc... not sure about phonon, having an additional (possibly flawed) layer on top of other (possibly flawed) sound system, is an improvement!

I just do not want KDE to be more than it should be... adding additional layer is necessary to obtain certain goals, but I do not want to end up with a bloated system, we have to remember KDE it is (should be) just a GUI, and not taking over the entire system! I am already forced to do things "the microsoft way" half of my time, I do not want having to do things "the kde way" the other half

You state always to be a programmer but it seems that you do not see the advantages of the frameworks. You asked for links:

• Solid: http://dot.kde.org/1177385913/
• Phonon: http://dot.kde.org/1170773239/
• Decibel: http://decibel.kde.org/
• Akonadi: http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/

These is really great for programmer. I really do not want to program such things on a low level. It makes programming faster. There is a single point of bugs. So I actually think that you should be pleased as programmer...

Of course it takes some time until the programmer catch up. A lot of Applications are not finished yet. But the progress of KDE is incredible fast. Comparing kde4.0 with kde4.1 and kde4.1 with kde4.2svn demonstrates that!

There are a few Apps which are really great already: Okular, Gwenview and Marble for example. Other apps are not finished yet but show their potential: Digikam, Amarok, k3b....

Thank you a lot for the links May-C, now I understand things better - it is not only for the programmer to adapt to then new libs, but to learn as well how to interact with the new components.

I like frameworks. However, there are already so many sound systems/sounds daemons for Linux, all with they peculiar limitations, they seem to pop up like mushrooms every day, to we really need a new framework on top of them just to make thinks coherent?

Has not this "sorting out the audio" been done over and over, is introducing another framework really necessary?

Will this not introduce additional latency to the audio?

Will this be the DEFINITIVE one, or will I have just to install ANOTHER sound system, and we will end up with an app using xine, one gstreamer, one alsa directly oss esd etc etc AND now new apps needing phonon?

Will not this force gnome users to bring up the entire phonon system when they load a kde app just to make it beep?

thedayofcondor wrote:Has not this "sorting out the audio" been done over and over, is introducing another framework really necessary?

Yes I think it is! It gives you a lot of freedom. Usually a app uses xine or gstreamer or whatever. There is no possibility for the user to decide. But if a programmer uses phonon the user can choose any soundsystem which is supported by phonon. If there is anoying bug in gstreamer you can change to xine...

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this not introduce additional latency to the audio?

I am no expert but I did notice no latency...

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this be the DEFINITIVE one, or will I have just to install ANOTHER sound system, and we will end up with an app using xine, one gstreamer, one alsa directly oss esd etc etc AND now new apps needing phonon?

This is the Definitive one for kde4. You are explaining exactly the situation how it is now. One app using xine another gstreamer... That is why phonon gives you freedom. You can decide only to install gstreamer and use phonon.

thedayofcondor wrote:Will not this force gnome users to bring up the entire phonon system when they load a kde app just to make it beep?

Of course this is a downside but not really the problem of kde. I am always looking to use software which is integrated with my desktop. There are some exceptions I use GTK-Apps and I live with the disadvantages...

thedayofcondor wrote:Has not this "sorting out the audio" been done over and over, is introducing another framework really necessary?

Yes I think it is! It gives you a lot of freedom. Usually a app uses xine or gstreamer or whatever. There is no possibility for the user to decide. But if a programmer uses phonon the user can choose any soundsystem which is supported by phonon. If there is anoying bug in gstreamer you can change to xine...

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this not introduce additional latency to the audio?

I am no expert but I did notice no latency...

thedayofcondor wrote:Will this be the DEFINITIVE one, or will I have just to install ANOTHER sound system, and we will end up with an app using xine, one gstreamer, one alsa directly oss esd etc etc AND now new apps needing phonon?

This is the Definitive one for kde4. You are explaining exactly the situation how it is now. One app using xine another gstreamer... That is why phonon gives you freedom. You can decide only to install gstreamer and use phonon.

thedayofcondor wrote:Will not this force gnome users to bring up the entire phonon system when they load a kde app just to make it beep?

Of course this is a downside but not really the problem of kde. I am always looking to use software which is integrated with my desktop. There are some exceptions I use GTK-Apps and I live with the disadvantages...