Hi, i just want to share this dolphin mockup with you. It might give you some ideas and inspiration. The design is NOT mine, I found it here: http://www.notmart.org

Here's the resized image because of the forum limits:


And here's the original one:
http://www.notmart.org/images/dolphin-mockup.png

I like that idea... Although I think there's a waste of space in the toolbar (and there are not breadcrumbs/path). Button shadows are way heavier (at least for me).

I guess the main thing with KDE apps are not redesigning themselves but the default widget style... As I'm keep saying from ages: Oxygen widget style is heavy for me, QtCurve would be a nice fit but it's umpolished and not 100% customizable.

Although I like the style and 3D look I have doubts about the space inbeetween elements. Currently, my dolphin has 14 icons on the toolbar. Here we have 9 very large buttons (looks almost like in gnome 3) and lots of space (even below the toolbar!). If this would use more desktop-like approach (you know, without those large backgrounds and empty spaces, and with the menubar) it wouldn't look that good but probabbly would be a lot more usable.

Personally I tend to squeeze all the icons into the left toolbar to save on vertical space. Ehm like this:


Now this mockup is Marco's I think (he is a plasma dev and advisor to VDG btw), and I like it - its different and that goes a long way in my book - but its kinda wasteful with the vertical space (the wide wide top bar) which makes it impossible to use on my laptop for example. On my desktop it would be nice though

Well, this may make sense, but I want to point out that we are used to have vertical control hierarchy: window decoration at the top can close everything, menubar below hold every action, toolbar holds some of those, and below there is actual content. Why destroy it?

Well in this case we most boil down your argument to two sections.

We start with "why destroy it" notice that my dolphin is changed that way through my own actions using whats available in the current Plasma (4.12 I think in my case). Nothing is destroyed even if that would become standard (which I doubt). Plasma has flexibility in its core and that I wouldn't want to, and lets be honest here, couldn't change even if I have the right to (I am not technically adept like the devs).
Nothing will be "destroyed".

Second - "we are used to" is a huge assumption. It also isn't an argument in and of itself. I am for example used to having majestic smokers coughs in the morning because I've smoked since I was 15 - that doesn't mean its a feature that I couldn't quickly learn to forget
Is it the best way to deal with it is a much more relevant question? If people are used to the opposite that is just an argument against wild experimentation without reasoning. That may sound a bit harsh but its relevant I think - conservatism for the sake of conservatism, is never good for inventions or improvement.

But what about this for an idea? You know how you can drag around the borders and settings and stuff in Dolphin now? Its a pest for me every time I install a new computer because I have to fiddle with it for ten minutes to get it the way it looks on all of my computers. What if there was a setting "In Configure Dolphin" with three or four premade layouts?`Like "Classic", "Laptop", "Netbook" and "Special" or something? You click it and it reorganizes itself to better fit the users need without having to fiddle too much with all the tiny little settings?

What if there was a setting "In Configure Dolphin" with three or four premade layouts?`Like "Classic", "Laptop", "Netbook" and "Special" or something?

I was just thinking that! When I first looked at the mockup at the start of this topic my first thought was: 'That would be great for my laptop'. Because I don't really use any of the 'power' features of dolphin on my laptop, unlike my desktop, so a simple interface that just shows main folders and the files is all I'd really need.

It must be possible to do because they managed to do Kontact Touch, and with the Plasma 2 aiming to target lots of different devices (tablets, TVs etc), then being able to scale these core applications up and down would be quite good to do.

Plasma has flexibility in its core

It is not about plasma. It is about widget layout in the application.

It's great that you can put this any way you may like. Actually you can get this view in the current dolphin. I just want to point out that operating on the "let's just move widgets wherever there is a free space" assumption is a very good way to have cluttered interface quickly. I propose to operate in the framework of visiual language instead, and hierarchy is one of it's aspects.

Yes but the issue isn't "to place X wherever there is room" but to realize that different shapes and forms fit better in different form factors - the argument that "we shouldn't change things because people are used to the current" is not applicable as an argument as it assumes too much. Caring for peoples need is more relevant.

I think that the suggestion for four or five different forms and layouts would work well to create a setting applicable to all without using the "well why don't you change it around yourself" as the lone solution. That way, we can have a "traditional" as well as a well made "laptop" or "widescreen" layout.

Plasma/Dolphin - absolutely it was obviously a miss-phrasing and like I said - I am using the current dolphin.

Well, it there would be global configuration key to set defualt orientation of toolbars in ALL applications, that would be sweet indeed. Providing disjoined dolphin option is probabbly not worth the effort, if you consider that changing it right now requires two mouseclicks.

Changing it now requires two drag actions, three mouseclicks and clicking several times to add four options for the panel. Depending on distro settings you also need to remove one to three options.

Yes that would be sweet but the issue is having a blanket setting for several different applications will be a huge undertaking demanding the work of several groups and we have to start somewhere. File managers, Chat programs, Email programs and similare "base" programs are perfect to start with.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2899105/out.ogv

This just demonstrates that effort of changing toolbar orientation of the single application is irrelevant. Better focus on more significant improvements, even if they are harder to implement.

I'm sceptical about moving icons to the left. For one, I very much like that KDE4 got to the point where applications no longer have 400 buttons in their toolbar by default, but maybe 6 to 10 really useful ones, which are also accompanied by a text telling what they do. For me, the text really helps usability -- if only by making the button large enough that you can actually conveniently click it, but also by making it very clear what it does. By moving the icons to the left you lose the text and in return encourage putting enough buttons there to fill the available space -- which will be much more buttons than what fits into the horizontal tool bar.

Also, many applications have different things at the left side. Just look at e.g. kate (tool views), krita (tool box) or gwenview (side panel). Interaction of the buttons with those could be weird.

For some applications the switch will always be useless or worse; take for example ktp-contactlist (icons on the left will make the narrow, tall window wider and less narrow), or even konqueror (toolbar is in the same line as the navigation bar, can't switch that).

Of course you can work around those problems, but the result will be an inconsistent user experience. Which is in my opinion worse than losing a bit of vertical space.

The idea of having separate UIs for different device form factors is certainly good, though. But I thought the plasma active guys had done quite some things there already, including for the file manager and such?

Greetings!
Sven

Ok I guess we need to start this thread over:
No one is saying "move everything to the left". My argument is that we will have to create different form factors for different devices. From my point of view - this is an open and shut case. The current layout is problematic and in allowing for easier change and more than one form factor is NOT a problem which Active proves.

Those who disagree will not notice the change as the same appearance will remain and those who do will enjoy it as a better fitting layout will be made available to them.

"Not solving the problem" is not a solution

@jensreuterberg
I don't disagree because i don't want it. I disagree because I think it is just missed idea. Providing extra configuration option for something that is trivial to setup manually (less than 30 seconds) is just cluttering configuration window and extra code to maintain without any benefit. Sorry if my opinion offends you somehow, but please try to use common sense.