notmart wrote:

alake wrote:Haha! It looks like we were of the same mind Marco. I just finished up working on those icons this morning. Even had the patch for kickoff ready and everything.

In any case here are the ones I did in case it's useful. No heartburn either way.

What's the status of this?
turns out, the current icon has problems in localization (aand now i remember why letters in icons -> bad idea )
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336351

Just about ready Marco. I worked on getting them aligned to the pixel grid last night and testing on my local install. I just need to add the stylesheet. After thinking about it a bit I'm keeping a version of the star for favorites. Bookmarks is a useful metaphor worth using for other scenarios, but I've come around to Ivan's view that it is really not the right metaphor here. I'll leave sorting out the appropriate icon naming to you. I should be able to get them to you today.

I know we've been down this path before without perfect resolution, but I'd like walk down this path again, albeit for an imperfect resolution.

Our venerable, shiny KDE logo launcher icon is looking hopelessly out of place on the Plasma 5 desktop now. Rather than struggle through the discussion about banding and the like, I'm just hoping we can settle on something that looks less out of place than what we have right now. So here are some terribly unimaginative ideas that I'm hoping will help us do this:



That second one is the plasma icon that Uri created that's now part of the Breeze icon theme.

If these don't work, ultimately, I think what's needed is a launcher icon that doesn't look out of place. My own opinion: I don't particularly care if it looks like the KDE logo or some other metaphor entirely. Hopefully after 5.0 as we work to improve the unity of icons between the icon theme and the plasma theme (and maybe even design some launcher visuals that doesn't necessarily restrict it to just a square icon in the panel), we'll have the opportunity to improve on what goes out the door for 5.0.

Pick one and I'll send over the assets to the plasma team, or maybe propose something so maybe we can get it in for the 5.0 release.

alake wrote:I know we've been down this path before without perfect resolution, but I'd like walk down this path again, albeit for an imperfect resolution.

Our venerable, shiny KDE logo launcher icon is looking hopelessly out of place on the Plasma 5 desktop now. Rather than struggle through the discussion about banding and the like, I'm just hoping we can settle on something that looks less out of place than what we have right now. So here are some terribly unimaginative ideas that I'm hoping will help us do this:



That second one is the plasma icon that Uri created that's now part of the Breeze icon theme.

If these don't work, ultimately, I think what's needed is a launcher icon that doesn't look out of place. My own opinion: I don't particularly care if it looks like the KDE logo or some other metaphor entirely. Hopefully after 5.0 as we work to improve the unity of icons between the icon theme and the plasma theme (and maybe even design some launcher visuals that doesn't necessarily restrict it to just a square icon in the panel), we'll have the opportunity to improve on what goes out the door for 5.0.

Pick one and I'll send over the assets to the plasma team, or maybe propose something so maybe we can get it in for the 5.0 release.

I pick either the Plasma logo or the second K logo. If we are to separate both things, Plasma and KDE, then the Plasma logo should be the one to be used.

I'd go for the new Plasma logo as well.
The launcher icon is not a strong branding opportunity for us anyway, since most distros I know replace it with their own logo.

People in the public forum are interested in discussing the Kickoff icon as well. Would it be okay to join them and discuss it publicly, or would anyone here prefer it to stay private?

Uri_Herrera wrote:

alake wrote:I know we've been down this path before without perfect resolution, but I'd like walk down this path again, albeit for an imperfect resolution.

Our venerable, shiny KDE logo launcher icon is looking hopelessly out of place on the Plasma 5 desktop now. Rather than struggle through the discussion about banding and the like, I'm just hoping we can settle on something that looks less out of place than what we have right now. So here are some terribly unimaginative ideas that I'm hoping will help us do this:



That second one is the plasma icon that Uri created that's now part of the Breeze icon theme.

If these don't work, ultimately, I think what's needed is a launcher icon that doesn't look out of place. My own opinion: I don't particularly care if it looks like the KDE logo or some other metaphor entirely. Hopefully after 5.0 as we work to improve the unity of icons between the icon theme and the plasma theme (and maybe even design some launcher visuals that doesn't necessarily restrict it to just a square icon in the panel), we'll have the opportunity to improve on what goes out the door for 5.0.

Pick one and I'll send over the assets to the plasma team, or maybe propose something so maybe we can get it in for the 5.0 release.

I pick either the Plasma logo or the second K logo. If we are to separate both things, Plasma and KDE, then the Plasma logo should be the one to be used.

Just some quick comments about the logos

It could even end up being a good idea using the Plasma logo. about it, purely as a logo I still have some doubts. I really like the black thick kindof a p but not a p, overall it feels a bit unbalanced and a bit empty tough. maybe playing with the colored circles sizes and position would be possible to obtain something a bit more balanced and unitary that would work better as a logo and as an icon.

About the K logo, if is used a variant of it (both the alternatives presented there are fine, even tough the second one is lighter so a bit better) the shape of the k-and-gear itself should not be altered in any way, because the KDE e.V. has an actual, proper trademark on that thing, so should be presented in the way it's actually protected. the new iconset has a strange variant of the k logo that should perhaps be replaced with one of those two.
When the plasma logo is final, and if will be used as the central thing, should perhaps be thought about trademarking that one too.

notmart wrote:
Just some quick comments about the logos

It could even end up being a good idea using the Plasma logo. about it, purely as a logo I still have some doubts. I really like the black thick kindof a p but not a p, overall it feels a bit unbalanced and a bit empty tough. maybe playing with the colored circles sizes and position would be possible to obtain something a bit more balanced and unitary that would work better as a logo and as an icon.

Well, the P effect was not made on purpose, I didn't see one, your brain is probably trying to see a P but since it isn't a straight up P you feel it's not balanced. If it feels empty is because it's not bloated like the old logo is, you know, to keep it minimal. I'd be strongly against aligning the elements into a P or similar.

notmart wrote:About the K logo, if is used a variant of it (both the alternatives presented there are fine, even tough the second one is lighter so a bit better) the shape of the k-and-gear itself should not be altered in any way, because the KDE e.V. has an actual, proper trademark on that thing, so should be presented in the way it's actually protected. the new iconset has an strange variant improved and modern version of the k logo that should perhaps be replaced with one of those two replace the current one.
When the plasma logo is final, and if will be used as the central thing, should perhaps be thought about trademarking that one too.

There, fixed

The K logo will stick out like a sore thumb in the new icon set. A lot. Just sayin'.

Uri_Herrera wrote:

notmart wrote:
Just some quick comments about the logos

It could even end up being a good idea using the Plasma logo. about it, purely as a logo I still have some doubts. I really like the black thick kindof a p but not a p, overall it feels a bit unbalanced and a bit empty tough. maybe playing with the colored circles sizes and position would be possible to obtain something a bit more balanced and unitary that would work better as a logo and as an icon.

Well, the P effect was not made on purpose, I didn't see one, your brain is probably trying to see a P but since it isn't a straight up P you feel it's not balanced. If it feels empty is because it's not bloated like the old logo is, you know, keep it minimal. I'd be strongly against aligning the elements into a P or similar.

dunno, that was the story about it i heard from Jens

what i was suggesting was not make it more like a p, just that at the moment looks a bit separed in two parts and slightly more heavy on the right part.

Uri_Herrera wrote:

notmart wrote:About the K logo, if is used a variant of it (both the alternatives presented there are fine, even tough the second one is lighter so a bit better) the shape of the k-and-gear itself should not be altered in any way, because the KDE e.V. has an actual, proper trademark on that thing, so should be presented in the way it's actually protected. the new iconset has astrange variant sane and modern version of the k logo that should perhaps be replaced with one of those two replace the current one.
When the plasma logo is final, and if will be used as the central thing, should perhaps be thought about trademarking that one too.

There, fixed

The K logo will stick out like a sore thumb in the new icon set. A lot. Just sayin'.

I know, and i know the current k logo is not a good logo per se for several reasons (terrible font, not optimal balance and spacing as well, a k is an "aggressive letter" and so is a gear) , and it may make sense a procedure to change it, but it has to be done in the proper way, therefore, expensive.
fact is, legal reasons are legal reasons (probably would need a lawyer to ask how much can be changed and remain protected, but i guess not much)

notmart wrote:
what i was suggesting was not make it more like a p, just that at the moment looks a bit separed in two parts and slightly more heavy on the right part.

That on the other hand was the purpose, to emphasize on the >, that Plasma is moving on, forward, etc.

notmart wrote:I know, and i know the current k logo is not a good logo per se for several reasons (terrible font, not optimal balance and spacing as well, a k is an "aggressive letter" and so is a gear) , and it may make sense a procedure to change it, but it has to be done in the proper way, therefore, expensive.
fact is, legal reasons are legal reasons (probably would need a lawyer to ask how much can be changed and remain protected, but i guess not much)

I know, it's just, I think KDE can do better with a new logo, but well, business do change their image every so often (like BP, or Apple years ago, Microsoft, etc.) that's why I don't know why the emphasis in that if it's changed KDE would lose it.

Some thoughts:

- the KDE logo has been traditionally the button to open the launcher, I think it's reminiscing us of the fine times of Windows 95 and follow-ups
- Semantically, in our new branding scheme, the K logo has no business there, it's KDE's trademark, but it's not the product (the product is Plasma, not KDE), if we want to keep the analogy "product logo as launcher icon", then it should be the Plasma logo
- We can alter and modify the logo, it is trademarked, but as long as we're not breaking trademark laws, no issue with that, for reference, the exact logo that is trademarked is this: http://ev.kde.org/media/images/trademar ... k_logo.png
- If we want something else as trademarked logo, that's a long and tedious process, but not impossible

In my opinion, using the monochrome version would be a quick fix that doesn't break traditions, and that would make it work with minimal semantical change, so that sounds like a sensible thing to do in time for 5.0. (This opinion is mostly driven by this time-constraint).

Ok, we somehow got back into the trademark discussions that I'm honestly desperately trying to avoid right now. For the moment I would like to advocate for a practical, get-the-situation-better-for-5.0. I see two approaches:

A. Transitional approach

• Preserve the KDE-logo-as-launcher-icon tradition and use the third icon. It is immediately familiar.
• Introduce the Breeze Plasma icon for product branding in the 5.0 release promo materials.
• For Plasma 5.1, push the product branding into the implementation (login session picker, splash screen, launcher icons, wallpaper?, etc.). With a few months of exposure, the users should be more familiar with the icon by then. Reserve the KDE logo for where we communicate community identity (for the record, I think we'll still need strong community branding in addition to the more prominent product branding).

B. New plasma icon

• Use the Breeze Plasma icon.
• Expose the new plasma icon to the user earlier. The default panel height is so small that if the first time they encounter the new plasma logo is the launcher icon, it is so small that it might not be very recognizable. The splash screen might be a good target for exposing the icon earlier and should be simple enough if we add a "[Icon] Plasma 5" under the current KDE logo. Paired with the 5.0 release promo materials, it might be enough to work...
• With this being the 5.0 release, if ever there was a time to break tradition and introduce plasma product branding this is it. Botching this though could leave a bad product impression.
• We would need to act quickly and decisively. The artwork freeze is next week Thursday, July 3rd. I have a local implementation of the splash screen changes ready.

No matter what we choose, post 5.0 I think we should:

• Reconcile all icons used throughout Plasma (systray, battery, kickoff, etc.) to the Breeze icon style. I know I have contributed to the discrepancy by my own efforts and I intend to spend my efforts post 5.0 correcting that.
• Start a new visual design effort for the launcher in the panel that's not constrained to simply using the product icon. This is where and when engaging with the wider VDG community would be most effective I think.

My bias is admittedly the conservative one: We go with the first approach for the immediate familiarity of the launcher icon that looks a little less out of place than ye olde shiny one and avoids the product/community branding/trademark issue that I don't think we can resolve in a week and a half. Any strong advocates for the second approach?

Hope this helps!

So for now (5.0) I would place the monochrome k logo as start-here-kde and kde in the desktop icon theme
and start-here-kde in the plasma theme as well for dark panels, is it ok?

(or if someone volunteers good as well

Marco, yes, I think that's the best solution for now.

Andrew: I didn't mean to drag trademarks into this discussion, instead I tried to make clear where the boundaries are, and that we can easily navigate around it and get a good-enough-for-5.0-solution -- which you proposed as "A". I otherwise agree with your findings.

sebas wrote:Marco, yes, I think that's the best solution for now.

ok, so right now i did put the monochrome classic kde logo in both the desktop icon theme and plasma theme, for 5.0 should be fine, then let's see

Sweet, thanks. Updating now...