a.s. Icons are fantastic so far!

Agreed for the undo-redo confusion. My proposal for that one would be to use an icon like the 'Reset' button has in alake's screenshot.

As for the 'save' icon... I do get the /need/ to have a floppy drive, but I would not mind if we left it behind. Until I read colmar's post, I didn't even notice that there is no floppy, and was immediately aware of what that icon is for. ('save as' is less intuitive, but I've never seen an icon that was actually able to present the 'save as' concept)

colomar wrote:Okay the "previous/next document" icons are pretty clear once you know what they mean. Actually a lot better than the current simple arrows.
The undo/redo icons are problematic, because now we have the same icons meaning something completely different in different applications. I don't think they're particularly bad for either function, but having different functions behind the same icons depending on the applications isn't a good idea I think. Therefore, could you create some (at least slightly) different icons for back/forward vs. undo/redo?

As for the save icon: Yes, floppy disks are antiquated, but they still work great for save icons, because they've transitioned from something resembling a physical object to an abstract picture strongly associated with a function and as such don't need the physical link to work anymore. See this Google+ post by Nuno himself about this here: https://plus.google.com/104287161566251 ... 8bBwjkCZfW
I see no advantage in replacing an icon which works great for that function even today (there is even empirical evidence for that: http://user-prompt.com/about-antiquated ... -in-icons/ ) with one that has to be learned anew, just because the former is resembling something "outdated". I am convinced you could create an icon which resembles the established "floppy disk" icon but looks modern and fits the rest of the theme, don't you think?

It works because it's so ubiquitous in interfaces not really because it just works, it won't go away because we're still using it. It's a standard because no one ever bothered to come up with something better because it "worked". Anyways given that this is not my own project I'll add the floppy icon to it, still I think the floppy should go away and be left in the past where it belongs.

ivan wrote:a.s. Icons are fantastic so far!

Agreed for the undo-redo confusion. My proposal for that one would be to use an icon like the 'Reset' button has in alake's screenshot.

As for the 'save' icon... I do get the /need/ to have a floppy drive, but I would not mind if we left it behind. Until I read colmar's post, I didn't even notice that there is no floppy, and was immediately aware of what that icon is for. ('save as' is less intuitive, but I've never seen an icon that was actually able to present the 'save as' concept)

I didn't use that because I was planning to use that specific icon for importing/exporting. The rotating arrows don't make sense to me other than they've always been like that, just like... the save icon.

If it matters any, I'm thinking it's totally worth playing around with new symbology that might better communicate "Save" and "Save as". I really think this is a great opportunity to push on the rope a little. I agree that there are lots of good reasons to use the floppy icon like Thomas (colomar) mentions. I also think we should feel some flexibility and daring to evolve some and potentially create some new paradigms. We can't possible know if there is something better than the floppy if no one tries to come up with something better.

Specifically, the underlying idea communicated with the down arrow here is potentially pretty compelling in it's approximation to "download" or "put this thing I'm looking at on my local storage". It might require some iteration but that's ok. I say go for it.

The worst thing that'll happen is that we don't come up with something that works as well or better than the floppy. The best thing that could happen is that we do! I don't think either of those outcomes is something we have to decide this early. Consider everything till then just open-ended feedback.

jensreuterberg wrote:Well we're sticking with monochrome for actions either way!

I'm fine with that, just wanted to make sure we won't run into problems later that the Oxygen guys already thought about.

Uri_Herrera wrote:He didn't mentioned that when we talked though, but back then the icons might have been ahead of their time if they had been monochromatic, so their time is now... I guess.

That's good to know. (Get ready for some user flame regarding the monochromatic icons. Personally, I love it for action icons.)

Uri_Herrera wrote:Is there a list of the icons?, all of them?.

Don't know about a list, but maybe you can look at the Oxygen icons (usually in /usr/share/icons/oxygen).
I could make a list of the files in those directories if you want.

Some thoughts about the new icons:

- I was also confused about the undo/redo icons, thought they meant previous/next document.
- The magnification glass can be a metaphor for both search and zoom. Looking forward to seeing how these will be distinguished.
- I was able to guess the Save/Save As icons, but I could see people getting confused about the arrows (for example, thinking that it means "these buttons provide a menu"). I searched around for Save icons and found this one which I quite like:



It's simple, has a down arrow, looks like a file, and sort of reminds of the old floppy icons. Maybe it can provide some inspiration.

For "Save As", floppy icons usually have a pen to indicate that you have to save to a new floppy disc that you label.
Perhaps the modern Save As icon could have something like three dots, indicating that you need to provide a new name for the file?

Uri_Herrera wrote:I didn't use that because I was planning to use that specific icon for importing/exporting. The rotating arrows don't make sense to me other than they've always been like that, just like... the save icon.

I see those as "going back in time"/"return to a previous state". The curvature makes the icons distinct from other icons that indicate a back direction, e.g. Back in browsers.

Finally, I just remembered that the Oxygen team/Usability team did a lot of surveys on icons in applications some time ago. You all may already know about this, but in case you don't, you can find some of the results on this page, for example KMail icon test and Guidelines for the Development of Icon Metaphors.

alake wrote:If it matters any, I'm thinking it's totally worth playing around with new symbology that might better communicate "Save" and "Save as". I really think this is a great opportunity to push on the rope a little. I agree that there are lots of good reasons to use the floppy icon like Thomas (colomar) mentions. I also think we should feel some flexibility and daring to evolve some and potentially create some new paradigms. We can't possible know if there is something better than the floppy if no one tries to come up with something better.

Specifically, the underlying idea communicated with the down arrow here is potentially pretty compelling in it's approximation to "download" or "put this thing I'm looking at on my local storage". It might require some iteration but that's ok. I say go for it.

The worst thing that'll happen is that we don't come up with something that works as well or better than the floppy. The best thing that could happen is that we do! I don't think either of those outcomes is something we have to decide this early. Consider everything till then just open-ended feedback.

I'm all for change it, I'm also going to change it in Nitrux. The idea is that, the new document icon is a paper sheet, the save icon is a paper sheet with a down facing arrow, I'm pretty sure a user is going to be able to differentiate the context of the icon, "I'm pressing this icon that has an arrow and a sheet like icon on a text editor having opened a file, this probably will put my document (back) where I opened it". In any case the day for the floppy to go is apparently not today.

Hans wrote:

jensreuterberg wrote:Well we're sticking with monochrome for actions either way!

I'm fine with that, just wanted to make sure we won't run into problems later that the Oxygen guys already thought about.

Uri_Herrera wrote:He didn't mentioned that when we talked though, but back then the icons might have been ahead of their time if they had been monochromatic, so their time is now... I guess.

That's good to know. (Get ready for some user flame regarding the monochromatic icons. Personally, I love it for action icons.)

Uri_Herrera wrote:Is there a list of the icons?, all of them?.

Don't know about a list, but maybe you can look at the Oxygen icons (usually in /usr/share/icons/oxygen).
I could make a list of the files in those directories if you want.

Some thoughts about the new icons:

- I was also confused about the undo/redo icons, thought they meant previous/next document.
- The magnification glass can be a metaphor for both search and zoom. Looking forward to seeing how these will be distinguished.
- I was able to guess the Save/Save As icons, but I could see people getting confused about the arrows (for example, thinking that it means "these buttons provide a menu"). I searched around for Save icons and found this one which I quite like:



It's simple, has a down arrow, looks like a file, and sort of reminds of the old floppy icons. Maybe it can provide some inspiration.

For "Save As", floppy icons usually have a pen to indicate that you have to save to a new floppy disc that you label.
Perhaps the modern Save As icon could have something like three dots, indicating that you need to provide a new name for the file?

Uri_Herrera wrote:I didn't use that because I was planning to use that specific icon for importing/exporting. The rotating arrows don't make sense to me other than they've always been like that, just like... the save icon.

I see those as "going back in time"/"return to a previous state". The curvature makes the icons distinct from other icons that indicate a back direction, e.g. Back in browsers.

Finally, I just remembered that the Oxygen team/Usability team did a lot of surveys on icons in applications some time ago. You all may already know about this, but in case you don't, you can find some of the results on this page, for example KMail icon test and Guidelines for the Development of Icon Metaphors.

I did came across that icon but instantly thought it had much less to do with save than a paper sheet with a down facing arrow.

Actually I did that, I added 3 dots to the floppy for save as. It seems natural given that it does open more options like the save as dialog.

I think that's also a matter of software itself using the same icon for different things, like Kate, it uses the back/forward icons to mean prev./next document where it should use a different icon like a sheet and an arrow, in the case of the icons I made the ones for redo/undo would fit perfectly. Software either needs to make use of more icons for different things or be re-factored around a new theme because right now it is way too dependent on how Oxygen looks.

Another example of that: System Settings, its toolbar uses icons from 2 different locations, actions and apps. With Oxygen this isn't noticeable at all, but with Nitrux or Compass it is, and too much. Because Oxygen uses 3D icons for everything, whereas mine don't. Ktorrent also does this, KTP, KMail, and probably more too.

This is a really really really short reply, due to vacation

Lets just remember the do-ocracy standard: the person doing is the person with the veto.

Also as for the floppy disk thing: I know we might run the risk of getting into a "floppy disk is dated" thing - ignore that bit. Get it done - then if someone propose a fix including a new icon - we can change it. Nothing is set in stone and flexibility is key - but right now everything needs to be constructive and moving forward. Academic usability debate is useful when there is time (and there will be time), so Uri and the icon guys shouldn't feel like they need to abide by it right now. Not trying to stem useful criticism here, just remember to keep things rolling and supportive.

Jens is right: Sorry if my opinion came across as "you must not use this icon!". I just stated that I personally see no advantage in getting rid of the established metaphor and gave reasons why.

The only point where I'd "veto" an icon is if I showed it to a reasonable sample of people and too many of them could not recognize it. I have not done that yet, so we can go ahead with the ones you proposed for now.

I think it would make sense to ask user-prompt to do an icon test of the most central/important icons at some point, and if some icons get very bad scores in that test, we should replace them. As long as new icons work at least as well as established ones, I'm fine with them

jensreuterberg wrote:This is a really really really short reply, due to vacation

Lets just remember the do-ocracy standard: the person doing is the person with the veto.

Also as for the floppy disk thing: I know we might run the risk of getting into a "floppy disk is dated" thing - ignore that bit. Get it done - then if someone propose a fix including a new icon - we can change it. Nothing is set in stone and flexibility is key - but right now everything needs to be constructive and moving forward. Academic usability debate is useful when there is time (and there will be time), so Uri and the icon guys shouldn't feel like they need to abide by it right now. Not trying to stem useful criticism here, just remember to keep things rolling and supportive.

colomar wrote:Jens is right: Sorry if my opinion came across as "you must not use this icon!". I just stated that I personally see no advantage in getting rid of the established metaphor and gave reasons why.

The only point where I'd "veto" an icon is if I showed it to a reasonable sample of people and too many of them could not recognize it. I have not done that yet, so we can go ahead with the ones you proposed for now.

I think it would make sense to ask user-prompt to do an icon test of the most central/important icons at some point, and if some icons get very bad scores in that test, we should replace them. As long as new icons work at least as well as established ones, I'm fine with them

The more people use the icon, the more the users are going to get familiar with it and associate it with save, exactly what happened with the floppy. We won't know if it works in the longer term or not until it's out and people continuously use it. Obviously including it right away to users will cause users to not associate the icon with the function it represents. A small case study would say no it doesn't work because X reason, but that X reason it's because of current events such as, the floppy is widely used, if the new icon was to be used for 1-2 years then it can be concluded whether it worked or not.

Hopefully that made sense, if not I kept the floppy and just moved the one I made to another folder. By the way is there a place where I should put what I'm doing?.


I changed a few times the floppy, I think this one fits with the rest of the icons so far. I haven't changed the undo/redo icons yet.

So, I tried another approach to the save icon, using the folder icon with a down arrow for save and added 3 dots for save as.

I added icons for Ark and the rest of the icons for Kate.

Neat stuff Uri!

As for where to put your work. For now, I say feel free to use whatever tool suits for now. Dropbox, Drive, git repo, whatever will be fine for now I think. Eventually all the icons should probably in a KDE git repo somewhere.

Thanks so much for working on these!

This is just a random question because I don't understand how they are set up - but I remember talking with Nuno about changing the folder icons in the tree-view or "places" for Dolphin and similar into monochrome symbol icons like those in Gnome/LXDE/Unity instead of just tiny tiny folder-icons.

Is that possible to do as it is right now or will that just end up having to do more in depth things?

alake wrote:Neat stuff Uri!

As for where to put your work. For now, I say feel free to use whatever tool suits for now. Dropbox, Drive, git repo, whatever will be fine for now I think. Eventually all the icons should probably in a KDE git repo somewhere.

Thanks so much for working on these!

Thanks I'll use GitHub, here's the repo: https://github.com/NitruxSA/plasma-next-icons.git

jensreuterberg wrote:This is just a random question because I don't understand how they are set up - but I remember talking with Nuno about changing the folder icons in the tree-view or "places" for Dolphin and similar into monochrome symbol icons like those in Gnome/LXDE/Unity instead of just tiny tiny folder-icons.

Is that possible to do as it is right now or will that just end up having to do more in depth things?

Like I made them in Compass?. I was going to keep the same Oxygen approach just have the folders tiny so it wouldn't be that different to users who don't like sudden changes.

Uri_Herrera wrote:

jensreuterberg wrote:This is just a random question because I don't understand how they are set up - but I remember talking with Nuno about changing the folder icons in the tree-view or "places" for Dolphin and similar into monochrome symbol icons like those in Gnome/LXDE/Unity instead of just tiny tiny folder-icons.

Is that possible to do as it is right now or will that just end up having to do more in depth things?

Like I made them in Compass?. I was going to keep the same Oxygen approach just have the folders tiny so it wouldn't be that different to users who don't like sudden changes.

If it's anything like in my screenshot with the Compass icons in the places panel in Dolphin below, then count me in for the change. I think there's a plan to ease users into the new visual design by not setting much of it default for the first release or two to give users the option to try it and provide feedback without freaking them out. That should give us some breathing room to try something like this I think. Besides which I think it works quite well with the overall visual goals...

alake wrote:

Uri_Herrera wrote:

jensreuterberg wrote:This is just a random question because I don't understand how they are set up - but I remember talking with Nuno about changing the folder icons in the tree-view or "places" for Dolphin and similar into monochrome symbol icons like those in Gnome/LXDE/Unity instead of just tiny tiny folder-icons.

Is that possible to do as it is right now or will that just end up having to do more in depth things?

Like I made them in Compass?. I was going to keep the same Oxygen approach just have the folders tiny so it wouldn't be that different to users who don't like sudden changes.

If it's anything like in my screenshot with the Compass icons in the places panel in Dolphin below, then count me in for the change. I think there's a plan to ease users into the new visual design by not setting much of it default for the first release or two to give users the option to try it and provide feedback without freaking them out. That should give us some breathing room to try something like this I think. Besides which I think it works quite well with the overall visual goals...

Yes, mostly like the folder icon in Kate and Ark, or it could be that same one since that's the shape of the actual folder icon.