I'm glad Plasma will start using the only sane application launcher by default! But it still has ways to go to make it world-class.

I took the screenshot from here and tweaked it. I left all the whitespaces which resulted from moving selections around in GIMP to highlight the changes. The red dotted line stresses the straight line which would happen, pointing out how submenu is as a result more harmoniously connected to parent menu geometrically. Changes commented in yellow, positive results of changes in green. Did redraw line between parent and submenu to make implications of change of better aligning clearer. Saving image and zooming into pixels shows the detail better.

BEFORE


AFTER



OLD MOCKUPS
http://a.pomf.se/hyskkt.jpeg


Design-wise, these small changes would make it less "floaty" and more "solid", which also makes Homerun more in line with what VDG is doing geometrically. The more coherent look with search results is extremely important for giving that solid, accessible non-confusing feel to it.

So your vision is to have something like this?:



If yes I second this!

Nuc!eoN wrote:So your vision is to have something like this?:

[img]http://abload.de/img/homerunner-kdeskkg1.png[/ig]

If yes I second this!

Well yes and no. See the 90° angle between Homerun and panel in bottom? Use that angle also between Homerun base and submenus to give feeling of continuity. FYI huge radii like that are banned by new design guidelines (hooray!). I also think subtle separation line is necessary. Giving impression that application menus following mouse cursor are like on rails, not opening as bubbles.

I'm also intrested in knowing if KF5 finally allows binding sole windows key to launching search. It would be awesome to have it bound to Homerun and leave alt+f2 for Kickstart. Reasons:
- almost every other modern desktop uses it (see: Cinnamon, GNOME, Unity, Windows Vista/7/8) so it's familiar and excepted behavior now
- fast to hit, search and go

Hm yeah actually I'm also a fan of very "thin" roundings. I just intended to stress the connection between the menu and submenu.
I know it's a bit rough but I'm not really much of a designer! -> I will now put this into my signature to cease peoples expectations^^

I aggree there should be a seperation - in my haste I had been very minimalistic.
One could possibly do it like this:
(seperator similar to the blue line in the plasma next panel)
or a seperator more like in win7:
(but vertical of course)

Maybe I'll try to do this in HTML and CSS...

I wouldn't remove the session tools from the sidebar. IMO that's one of the things that makes the Kickoff Menu great - the session tools are just one click away and located close to that click.
At most put a bar separating it from the favourites.

prosmaninho wrote:I wouldn't remove the session tools from the sidebar. IMO that's one of the things that makes the Kickoff Menu great - the session tools are just one click away and located close to that click.
At most put a bar separating it from the favourites.

They are not favorite applications. They are system commands which produce horrible results if clicked accidentally. That makes entire concept of favorites confusing. They are clearly in wrong place. Furthermore, there is already "Power/Session" menu right next to them, so it is obvious duplicate for no good reason. It is a horrible design decision. There also is separating bar, and if deft user manages to remove those dangerous workflow breaking buttons that need to be carefully avoided every time user opens a menu, that bar still irritatingly remains.

Imagine if there was a command right next to something you use in a program you use all the time right next to most used menu item in that program that shuts down the program. Say, putting a second close button right next to File > Export as PDF in LibreOffice writer while a second close is just a bit further down, safely in its own nest. That is the level of design error here.

prosmaninho wrote:I wouldn't remove the session tools from the sidebar. IMO that's one of the things that makes the Kickoff Menu great - the session tools are just one click away and located close to that click.
At most put a bar separating it from the favourites.

I agree! And actually, there is a separator. Apparently it's not visible enough, though-

prosmaninho wrote:I wouldn't remove the session tools from the sidebar. IMO that's one of the things that makes the Kickoff Menu great - the session tools are just one click away and located close to that click.
At most put a bar separating it from the favourites.

Yes I also have to aggree. I can't imaginge somebody accidentilly clicking them and it has already proven to be a comfort (also on Windows).

Nuc!eoN wrote:

prosmaninho wrote:I wouldn't remove the session tools from the sidebar. IMO that's one of the things that makes the Kickoff Menu great - the session tools are just one click away and located close to that click.
At most put a bar separating it from the favourites.

Yes I also have to aggree. I can't imaginge somebody accidentilly clicking them and it has already proven to be a comfort (also on Windows).

Which of these do you guys do most often with your computer: reboot it, shut it down, lock your screen or launch applications?

Mate, please calm down. I disagree with you. There are multiple Menus that have session management buttons easily available near the favourites.
On the top of my mind you have the Cinnamon Menu, the Whisker Menu and the Start Menu from Windows 7 where the close button is below a bunch of other actions.
It's a common and logical area where to place the session management buttons and quite frankly I very much prefer to have them there than to go to session management and choose the action that I want to do (and I always mistake what the hell I want to do, suspend, hibernate, close session, ugh...).
Therefore, I really prefer to have 3 or 4 buttons for session management at the distance of a click without additional clicks. It's convenient, it's done by multiple other menus and it works.

Also you seem to be in a minority here because the vast majority of PC users (not only Linux users but also Windows users) prefer to have session options available in the least clicks possible. Just notice how much criticism Windows 8 and Windows Vista got by not making those options accessible at the distance of a click. So much that Microsoft introduced that option again with Windows 8.1 in the Start Screen.

So no need to be so aggressive. You really seem to be aggravated by the way the menu is set up right now.

I do believe that you made some nice points:
1 - Indeed having the Power/session option and the buttons is duplication of entries in the menu so I would remove the Power/Session from the menu;
2 - To avoid "confusing" users about having favourites and session options in the same bar I would simply make the distinction between them more visible. Instead of having both options inside the same rectangle with a not so clear separator between them (didn't even noticed it untill colomar pointed it out) just place the session management buttons and the favourites in two distinct rectangles or make the line separator more clear. However, this is just a matter of creating a new skin for the Menu that makes this distinction more clear. Something that I am sure is being made so maybe this can be taken into account.

As for your question about what I do most often: obviously launch applications. But when I launch applications I also don't open the menu to do it. I place application icons of my most used applications in the taskbar (with Icon-Only taskbar, or DockbarX in Gnome side) or use a dock (Cairo Dock, Docky, etc). In Windows I have the icons of the applications I frequently launch in the taskbar as well.
I mainly use the Menu for session management, search and accessing System settings. Therefore, removing the Close/suspend/change user buttons from there and hiding them is a big deal for me and I strongly disagree with you.

@prosmaninho: I aggree in all points. However one solution that would definately make all happy would be to make the quick launchers fully customizable (including separators etc, e.g. like it's done in Cairo-Dock). That would generally be a good Idea IMO.

New mockup! Now with better defined area for session commands.

prosmaninho wrote:There are multiple Menus that session management buttons easily available near the favourites.
On the top of my mind you have the Cinnamon Menu, the Whisker Menu and the Start Menu from Windows where the close button is below a bunch of other actions.
It's a common and logical area where to place the session management buttons and quite frankly I very much prefer to have them there than to go to session management and choose the action that I want to do (and I always mistake what the hell I want to do, suspend, hibernate, close session, ugh...).
Therefore, I really prefer to have 3 or 4 buttons for session management at the distance of a click without additional clicks. It's convenient, it's done by multiple other menus and it works.

Windows 7 menu actually looks like this and is very close to my proposal of separating favorite applications clearly from system commands:


Same thing with whisker menu:


Cinnamon and Homerun are anomalies when they group system commands with favorites. Besides, how is shutdown menu right next to favorites not "easily available near the favourites"?

Also you seem to be in a minority here because the vast majority of PC users (not only Linux users) prefer to have session options available in the least clicks possible. Just notice how much criticism Windows 8 and Windows Vista got by not making those options accessible at the distance of a click. So much that Microsoft introduced that option again with Windows 8.1 in the Start Screen.

Microsoft literally hid the shutdown buttons behind hidden menu. Even I couldn't find them. You can't possibly compare this proposition to that idiocy.

I do believe that you made some nice points:
1 - Indeed having the Power/session option and the buttons is duplication of entries in the menu so I would remove the Power/Session from the menu;
2 - To avoid "confusing" users about having favourites and session options in the same bar I would simply make the distinction between them more visible. Instead of having both options inside the same rectangle with a not so clear separator (didn't even noticed it untill colomar pointed it out) between them just place the session management buttons and the favourites in two distinct rectangles or make the line separator more clear. However, this is just a matter of creating a new skin for the Menu that makes this distinction more clear. Something that I am sure is being made so maybe this can be taken into account.

1) Only if what I'm suggesting next happens to make it permament like power/session menu is. Essential item like that needs to be permament. Right now user who wants to put favorites into favorite applications can remove system commands from cluttering favorites and if that menu is removed, then how does user shut down the computer?
2) What about moving those buttons away from favorite applications altogether into their own separate area to make the distinction even clearer?

As for your question about what I do most often: obviously launch applications. But when I launch applications I also don't open the menu to do it. I place application icons of my most used applications in the taskbar (with Icon-Only taskbar, or DockbarX in Gnome side) or use a dock. In Windows I have the icons of the applications I frequently launch in the taskbar as well.
I mainly use the Menu for session management, for search and for accessing System settings. Therefore, removing the Close/suspend/change user buttons from there and hiding them is a big deal for me and I strongly disagree with you.

I too use rather exclusively GNOME activities launcher. I rarely open application view. But you need to stop thinking what you want and try thinking a lot of use cases. We are talking of defaults for thousands of KDE users here. Thanks for admitting you use operating sytem more to launch application than for shutting it down. That's a starting point. Now think why you don't use menu. Perhaps, could it possibly be, that it sucks and needs some fixing?

daedaluz wrote:New mockup! Now with better defined area for session commands.

prosmaninho wrote:There are multiple Menus that session management buttons easily available near the favourites.
On the top of my mind you have the Cinnamon Menu, the Whisker Menu and the Start Menu from Windows where the close button is below a bunch of other actions.
It's a common and logical area where to place the session management buttons and quite frankly I very much prefer to have them there than to go to session management and choose the action that I want to do (and I always mistake what the hell I want to do, suspend, hibernate, close session, ugh...).
Therefore, I really prefer to have 3 or 4 buttons for session management at the distance of a click without additional clicks. It's convenient, it's done by multiple other menus and it works.

Windows 7 menu actually looks like this and is very close to my proposal of separating favorite applications clearly from system commands:


Same thing with whisker menu:


Cinnamon and Homerun are anomalies when they group system commands with favorites. Besides, how is shutdown menu right next to favorites not "easily available near the favourites"?

Also you seem to be in a minority here because the vast majority of PC users (not only Linux users) prefer to have session options available in the least clicks possible. Just notice how much criticism Windows 8 and Windows Vista got by not making those options accessible at the distance of a click. So much that Microsoft introduced that option again with Windows 8.1 in the Start Screen.

Microsoft literally hid the shutdown buttons behind hidden menu. Even I couldn't find them. You can't possibly compare this proposition to that idiocy.

I do believe that you made some nice points:
1 - Indeed having the Power/session option and the buttons is duplication of entries in the menu so I would remove the Power/Session from the menu;
2 - To avoid "confusing" users about having favourites and session options in the same bar I would simply make the distinction between them more visible. Instead of having both options inside the same rectangle with a not so clear separator (didn't even noticed it untill colomar pointed it out) between them just place the session management buttons and the favourites in two distinct rectangles or make the line separator more clear. However, this is just a matter of creating a new skin for the Menu that makes this distinction more clear. Something that I am sure is being made so maybe this can be taken into account.

1) Only if what I'm suggesting next happens to make it permament like power/session menu is. Essential item like that needs to be permament. Right now user who wants to put favorites into favorite applications can remove system commands from cluttering favorites and if that menu is removed, then how does user shut down the computer?
2) What about moving those buttons away from favorite applications altogether into their own separate area to make the distinction even clearer?

As for your question about what I do most often: obviously launch applications. But when I launch applications I also don't open the menu to do it. I place application icons of my most used applications in the taskbar (with Icon-Only taskbar, or DockbarX in Gnome side) or use a dock. In Windows I have the icons of the applications I frequently launch in the taskbar as well.
I mainly use the Menu for session management, for search and for accessing System settings. Therefore, removing the Close/suspend/change user buttons from there and hiding them is a big deal for me and I strongly disagree with you.

I too use rather exclusively GNOME activities launcher. I rarely open application view. But you need to stop thinking what you want and try thinking a lot of use cases. We are talking of defaults for thousands of KDE users here. Thanks for admitting you use operating sytem more to launch application than for shutting it down. That's a starting point. Now think why you don't use menu. Perhaps, could it possibly be, that it sucks and needs some fixing?

I don't believe Cinnamon Menu and Kickoff Menu are "anomalies". They have a different organization than your preferred method therefore you are belittling them because they don't fit your preferences on how a menu should be organized. IMO, both these menus as well as the ones i mentioned work great and users don't confuse favourites with session tools.

And I am not thinking about what I want because I am not the one here trying to force my vision on others. You are the one trying to push for changes, so at most you are the one pushing what you want. I disagree with your position, I don't consider your mock-ups better than the current Kickoff menu so lets leave it at that.

daedaluz wrote:New mockup! Now with better defined area for session commands.

Hm... On the one hand I like the placement, on the other hand it only has space for two buttons. What if people want more session buttons quickly accessible?
Btw: People who don't loke the session commands in the sidebar and are fine with the "Power/Session" menu can simply remove the buttons from the sidebar. Problem solved, right?

colomar wrote:Hm... On the one hand I like the placement, on the other hand it only has space for two buttons. What if people want more session buttons quickly accessible?
Btw: People who don't loke the session commands in the sidebar and are fine with the "Power/Session" menu can simply remove the buttons from the sidebar. Problem solved, right?

There are total of seven session commands available: shutdown, restart, logout, switch user, lock, sleep & hibernate. That obligates existence of some kind of menu where less used session commands are located, since having them all visible all the time would be rather cluttering (self-explanatory I hope), counterproductive (takes lot of screen space) and confusing (button icon alone is not self-explanatory especially for visually impaired).

I actually thought of separation of Session and Power dialogues on that mockup: pressing Power button would bring dialogue window with shutdown, restart, sleep and hibernate. Pressing Session button would bring similar window with logout, switch user and lock. Those would be similar to confirm windows user now gets when pressing any of those buttons, complete with that nice fadeout effect. Not long after posting that mockup I realized it defeats purpose of having Power/Session menu!

So actually, going with those two "superbuttons" is exclusive to having Power/Session menu. It is either-or situation. Both would require same amount of clicks and same mouse movement thanks to confirm dialogs, as selection dialog would also acts as confirmation dialog. Three clicks to shutdown in either case (assuming menu is set to auto-open on hover). Actually, I now started leaning towards "superbuttons". Humans can effectively perceive & keep 2-5 things in mind simultaneously, so instead of looking at menu of 7 items user would get first 2 and then 3-4 options to choose from, so it would make human-computer interaction faster.

So it would look something like...


You are correct that users can put what they want to favorites, and I have nothing against someone wanting shutdown right next to Firefox icon. I've debated sanity of that as default setting. Rather than thinking "users can remove those", think "users can add those". User most likely to shutdown computer by accident is the user least likely to fealize he can remove the offender.