Tuukka wrote:Harmony sounds nice, but I would perhaps try to look for something a bit more dynamic (harmony sounds like something that is perfect as it is, and doesn't invite interaction).

Hmm, how about 'flow' then. It makes me think of flowing water; harmonious, dynamic, soothing, beautiful, but also strong and eternal.

Tuukka wrote:We could, instead of making claims about the quality, just create an idea of a well-thought set of core applications that have received special attention and work well together. A plasma desktop would not be complete without these applications (note also that we are talking about desktop here, not active/mobile apps). That was behind my suggestions 'Desktop Essentials' and 'Cornerstones'.

My problems with the branding go further than just this particular issue sadly, and is really to do with the lack of a root name for KDE to release the software under. If we look at Gnome, that's the name they use to release not only the desktop, but the essential applications ('batteries included' is their terminology for it) as well. By doing this we are now adding a forth brand to the KF5 / Plasma 5 / Applications line, in addition to effectively changing the name of KDE to Plasma from an end users point of view, which I think is wrong on many levels.

But 'cornerstones' is a good name I must admit.

The two applications that get by FAR the most use on my computer are the email client and the web browser - I use Thunderbird & Firefox. A new email client is already part of what's being discussed here, but i think we also need to discuss a browser - even if we just come to the decision that 'there's plenty of browsers out there - use whichever one you want'. If that's what we choose then it might it be worth selecting the most suitable existing browser and tweak it or create a theme (I don't know what can be done) to help integrate it with the new Plasma desktop and our new applications.

A suggestion for the name - 'Core' - it doesn't convey elegance etc. but instead it conveys reliability and dependability and that these are the core applications that you'll want to install. So the applications could be called 'Core Mail', 'Core Music' etc. etc. and the logo to show it's one of the 'approved' programs could simply be the word 'Core' large and in the centre and 'made by KDE' or 'by KDE' or whatever underneath.

davidwright wrote:Hmm, how about 'flow' then. It makes me think of flowing water; harmonious, dynamic, soothing, beautiful, but also strong and eternal.

'Flow' is pretty good. Another word in similar spirit that crossed my mind is 'Clarity'.

davidwright wrote:My problems with the branding go further than just this particular issue sadly, and is really to do with the lack of a root name for KDE to release the software under. If we look at Gnome, that's the name they use to release not only the desktop, but the essential applications ('batteries included' is their terminology for it) as well.

Well, we could take the 'made for Plasma' route. It would limit the audience of the applications, but would that be such an issue for applications such as the file manager or media player? I mean, how many users of Dolphin or Dragon player don't use Plasma anyway? The same more or less applies to Gwenview and Okular. However, we cannot force the developers to use such a restrictive brand if they dont like it.

Speaking of a root name, I think KDE is still the root name in the sense that it answers the question 'who made this software?'. It is just not the product. And we need to be a little bit careful about how to use it because many people think of KDE as a product. But phrases like 'by KDE' are useful.

davidwright wrote:By doing this we are now adding a forth brand to the KF5 / Plasma 5 / Applications line, in addition to effectively changing the name of KDE to Plasma from an end users point of view, which I think is wrong on many levels.

Well, IMO not doing it would be wrong in many levels. It'd be like Microsoft calling its operating system 'Microsoft'. But that's a discussion for another time.

Regarding the brands you mention, KF5 is a rather technical brand and only meaningful to developers and KDE contributors mostly. AFAIK the future of the Applications brand is uncertain because developers are unsure whether they want to keep a common release schedule. A lot of important KDE software is not a part of Applications anyway, such as Calligra or Amarok. With their own release schedule they would be just 'KDE Software' or 'by KDE' and might participate in common KDE release days if they wish (I hope there will be such release days for publicity purposes). I think eventually Plasma might be the only large user-visible brand, accompanied by a number of smaller brands (among which some larger ones such as Calligra or Kontact) that all are under the KDE umbrella.

ken300 wrote:The two applications that get by FAR the most use on my computer are the email client and the web browser - I use Thunderbird & Firefox. A new email client is already part of what's being discussed here, but i think we also need to discuss a browser - even if we just come to the decision that 'there's plenty of browsers out there - use whichever one you want'. If that's what we choose then it might it be worth selecting the most suitable existing browser and tweak it or create a theme (I don't know what can be done) to help integrate it with the new Plasma desktop and our new applications.

I agree that the browser is extremely important, but it also far more complex than all the other applications. As far as I know, at the moment the main obstacle for creating a modern browser based on KDE technologies is that Qt doesn't provide a modern browser engine right now. However, QtWebEngine should be coming soonish. Anyway, even then creating a competitive browser (Rekonq2?) will be a major challenge.

There has been some success in integrating Firefox to Plasma desktop, but there are technical issues that make it hard to do it perfectly. And perhaps unwillingness from Firefox developers.

ken300 wrote:A suggestion for the name - 'Core' - it doesn't convey elegance etc. but instead it conveys reliability and dependability and that these are the core applications that you'll want to install. So the applications could be called 'Core Mail', 'Core Music' etc. etc. and the logo to show it's one of the 'approved' programs could simply be the word 'Core' large and in the centre and 'made by KDE' or 'by KDE' or whatever underneath.

I'm not sure whether we should use the label as a part of the application name. I'm not 100% against it, but it would be hard to get a consensus behind it. And the developers of each application would need to approve of the new name. I'm mainly thinking of the label as a 'stamp' or a logo that is used with marketing.

Just my quick two-cents... You guys are doing a GREAT job, and I love that you're coming up with a standardized HIG -- it's something the Linux DE scene has needed for a very long time. Plasma 5 looks fantastic, but I'm personally holding off on switching until it's production ready (testing in VM, of course)

I'm pretty new to the community, so I don't know how much weight my opinion holds - but the Made for Plasma "certification" as you will (following HIG, other things you guys have decided on) is a great idea - it's sort of like the sticker that manufacturers would put on PCs for Windows - I don't think it has to be in the app title, but in the descriptions you could say "optimized for Plasma" or "For optimal experience... yada yada"

Either way, great work folks - the mocks look fantastic - once everything is together a suite, we're going to have a true killer product here.

Proud of all of you!

One final suggestion:

Designed for Plasma

It's a little "softer" than 'Made for Plasma' and I think it would be good to have the word 'design' in the tag. If the application developer consent to this, I could perhaps cast my vote on this one.

Tuukka wrote:One final suggestion:

Designed for Plasma

It's a little "softer" than 'Made for Plasma' and I think it would be good to have the word 'design' in the tag. If the application developer consent to this, I could perhaps cast my vote on this one.

I like that. It brings the HIG into focus, and isn't discounting other DEs. I like it better than my "Optimized" for suggestion.

What about an acronym instead - where each letter is the first letter of another word that says something about the application, the acronym that we end up with could be chosen to say something about what we're aiming for.

A quick and incomplete example of what i mean (and to be clear it's not a real suggestion, it just demonstrates the kind of thing that i mean) could be something like - B.A.S.E

B - Beautiful (it's designed from the ground up with style & ease of use in mind)
A - ??
S - Secure
E - Efficient (because it's designed to run perfectly on our Plasma desktop)

The word 'B.A.S.E' makes you think of good solid dependable things but has also got a bit of extra 'cool factor' because of the association with the extreme sport of B.A.S.E jumping. The logo could simply be whatever acronym we chose with 'by KDE' in a very subtle way underneath.

I think the word chic conveys elegance and style and can stay pretty much the same in most languages.

An idea got bounced around the VDG chat, and the idea of using 'Breeze' as the signifier for "Made by Plasma" came up, so applications based on this would be named things such as...

• Breeze Image Viewer
• Breeze Video Player
• Breeze Calendar
• Breeze Weather Forecast

Primarily, the Breeze name would imply that applications are made in strict adherence to Breeze visual design guidelines and VDG mantras. When you use 'Breeze' applications you are seeing the distilled vision of look, feel, flow, and integration that Plasma and VDG developers are aiming for.

The main benefits to Breeze as a name were pointed out as follows;

• The name is Familiar and pervasive across Plasma 5.1; users know it. Breeze has a defined philosophy; named applications will inherit that philosophy. When you use Breeze style plasma widgets or Breeze applications, you know what you'll get.
• With every major release of KDE comes a new visual style; We don't know what KDE applications in 10 years are going to look like, but we do know it will change. So when we refresh the applications in the future, they will inherit that new styles' name to associate with the trends of next decade. (So 5.x will be "Breeze Mail" and 6.x would eventually become something like "Aura Mail" - or whatever the next visual guideline is named. In other words, this can be carried into the far future as a general naming convention (name core apps after the visual style).
• As the Breeze style is tweaked over the next 5 years 'Breeze' applications would obviously be adapted as appropriate. They could be used by developers to say "this is our current standard".
• Breeze is tightly associated with Plasma, but does not imply tight integration. Breeze applications would readily associate and be expected to work well with Plasma, but do not necessarily require integration, and are separate enough to be portable. You can totally install the Breeze GTK style on Gnome, and you could install Breeze apps on XFCE.
• Breeze is considered part of the 'default' KDE experience, and we imagine Breeze applications would be treated similarly as part of the 'default' KDE applications sets.
• Breeze keeps the searchability on Google (Ie searching for "Breeze Image Scanner") as other proposed names.

Lastly; sorry for whipping out the necronomicon on this thread. I blame Thomas - he made me do it! I swear!

Kver wrote:Lastly; sorry for whipping out the necronomicon on this thread. I blame Thomas - he made me do it! I swear!

I only made you do it because

1. The discussion had not concluded, so the thread was never really "dead"
2. I think your idea is brilliant, and brilliantly simple (so simple that I wonder why we didn't get it before), and your arguments make perfect sense!

colomar wrote:I only made you do it because...

... So you admit you made me do it!

Kver wrote:

colomar wrote:I only made you do it because...

... So you admit you made me do it!

Of course I did! I am the puppet master, pulling your guys' strings so you execute my grand plan!
Or in other words: Some people just need a push to put their ideas out in the world, and you, Ken, need a whole lot of pushes!

That actually sounds pretty good.

Just one thing:

• Breeze Image Viewer
• Breeze Video Player
• Breeze Calendar
• Breeze Weather Forecast

This would limit us to only one application per area, wouldn't it? What happens if we have two different image viewers, or two different calendars?

Or are these just general examples, so what we would actually end up with are things like:

• Breeze Kate
• Breeze Calligra Words
• Breeze Gwenview
• Breeze Dolphin

veqz wrote:Or are these just general examples, so what we would actually end up with are things like:

• Breeze Kate
• Breeze Calligra Words
• Breeze Gwenview
• Breeze Dolphin

Actually, I think there should be only one Breeze application for each task. That doesn't mean there can be only one KDE application, of course, but the idea is that users that don't want to take the time to compare different applications for a specific purpose can just choose the Breeze application for that purpose and know they won't be disappointed.

A bit like the KDE SC, which also had only one application for most tasks, with additional applications residing in Extragear (see for example Juk vs. Amarok or Kopete vs. KDE Telepathy).

That also doesn't mean there could be only one Breeze application that displays images, for example. There could be Breeze Gallery and Breeze PhotoEdit, and even a separate Breeze Slideshow if we find out that these should be different applications.

All the existing KDE applications would continue and of course receive our design supprt whenever they ask for it, but many application communities might not be comfortable with making their application fit in perfectly with the Breeze philosophy anyway because their vision might be different from ours.