I think the trouble on those icons would have started out because of slight abandoning of the original concept.
The "original" icons represented the actions of hardware publishing what became less understandable (in case you ever wondered why "paste" used to be a brush: "glue, not paint.")

The "paste" icon certainly turned into a clipboard, causing a systematic inconsistency (2*action -> action+object) and leaving the scissors behind (w/o actually any meaning except "it's what *I* have been introduced to 20 years in the past)

I'd actually prefer the icons to be "action", not "object", but there's a major issue:
the icon would have to say "ctrl+x" and "ctrl+v", because that's the only cut & paste "action" users will know

So, it would be "object".
Do you think this direction could work?


@Uri, in case of interest:
do you believe you could alter the individual icons so that they remain recognizable, but fit into the tiny icon size?

luebking wrote:Do you think this direction could work?

I have no idea which of those two icons are which...

Also, I just asked a friend about the meaning of the icon I suggested: First she guessed paste, then she guessed copy, and then finally she guessed cut... This is hard!

luebking wrote:I think the trouble on those icons would have started out because of slight abandoning of the original concept.
The "original" icons represented the actions of hardware publishing what became less understandable (in case you ever wondered why "paste" used to be a brush: "glue, not paint.")

The "paste" icon certainly turned into a clipboard, causing a systematic inconsistency (2*action -> action+object) and leaving the scissors behind (w/o actually any meaning except "it's what *I* have been introduced to 20 years in the past)

I'd actually prefer the icons to be "action", not "object", but there's a major issue:
the icon would have to say "ctrl+x" and "ctrl+v", because that's the only cut & paste "action" users will know

Couldn't we adjust the actions to be:

- Cut part of out whole (cut)
- Make an equal copy of some object (copy)
- Insert (paste)

That's more in line with what actually happens, and might be easier to visualise in an icon?

'nother attempt


(Notice that I do not insist on changing things - just feeding thoughts)

Uri_Herrera wrote:Yet duplication of efforts is not what we need.. it's not what any project needs. And for that matter Oxygen it's still there for those old gear heads.

Agreed. Having two Breeze themes with mostly the same icons but different ones for some things doesn't make much sense to me, either. Usability-testing the Breeze icons and iterating on problematic ones together until we come up with a set that both fit the style you set and work for users is the best way in my opinion.

-------------------------------

There, scissors. it's already in the GitHub repo.

Falling back to an icon that is unoriginal but works for the time being, but in the meantime trying to come up with one that is original but works well nevertheless sounds like a good approach to me.
Thanks, Uri!

veqz wrote:- Cut part of out whole (cut)
- Make an equal copy of some object (copy)
- Insert (paste)

That's more in line with what actually happens, and might be easier to visualise in an icon?

If you think it's easier to visualize =)

Actually to me that seemed the problem of this thread (get away from scissors and glue publishing icons to something more related to the year 2015, yet being understandable as the action)

luebking wrote:'nother attempt


(Notice that I do not insist on changing things - just feeding thoughts)

I find the general "to clipboard / from clipboard" idea interesting. A problem I see with it, though: Both cut and copy put content into the clipboard. In this metaphor world, the current metaphor for the copy icon would be incorrect because the copy is created in the clipboard, not in the "real world". In this metaphor world, one would have to communicate that copy creates a version in the clipboard while leaving the original intact, whereas cut creates a copy in the clipboard and removes the real-world original.
In this way, we cut create "correct" icons which would however probably be very hard to distinguish.

How about this then?

Cut, Copy and Paste/Insert:

Of course we can change the icon theme to Oxygen or whatever, but the default icon theme should just work for any level of user.

Some users won't install and configure their Plasma 5 system themselves. Maybe they work for Munich's government or at some lucky school with Linux computers. So with a great opportunity to promote KDE and open source software, we then ruin it by getting the basics like icons wrong.

Until you have successfully reinvented the wheel please don't force people to work with replacements that demonstrably don't work anywhere near as well.

I really don't think that an experimental branch of the Breeze icon theme is an unnecessary duplication of effort. It seems to me like all of KDE development is based on git repositories and different branches for new features. For example, the Breeze windeco is being worked on in a new branch of the Breeze repository right now. It's not ready yet but you can try it if you want or just use another windeco for the moment.

P

luebking wrote:I think the trouble on those icons would have started out because of slight abandoning of the original concept.
The "original" icons represented the actions of hardware publishing what became less understandable (in case you ever wondered why "paste" used to be a brush: "glue, not paint.")

The "paste" icon certainly turned into a clipboard, causing a systematic inconsistency (2*action -> action+object) and leaving the scissors behind (w/o actually any meaning except "it's what *I* have been introduced to 20 years in the past)

I'd actually prefer the icons to be "action", not "object", but there's a major issue:
the icon would have to say "ctrl+x" and "ctrl+v", because that's the only cut & paste "action" users will know

So, it would be "object".
Do you think this direction could work?


@Uri, in case of interest:


do you believe you could alter the individual icons so that they remain recognizable, but fit into the tiny icon size?

It does resemble more of copy and/or paste than cut.

luebking wrote:'nother attempt


(Notice that I do not insist on changing things - just feeding thoughts)

Still resembles those, it's not a bad icon however but it's definitively more complicated than the rest of the icons.

veqz wrote:How about this then?

Cut, Copy and Paste/Insert:

The shadow behind the cutout is reminiscent of old Ui icons. And icons have the same height no matter what, they may vary in width if the idea doesn't fit a square shape.

pepedopolous wrote:Of course we can change the icon theme to Oxygen or whatever, but the default icon theme should just work for any level of user.

Some users won't install and configure their Plasma 5 system themselves. Maybe they work for Munich's government or at some lucky school with Linux computers. So with a great opportunity to promote KDE and open source software, we then ruin it by getting the basics like icons wrong.

Until you have successfully reinvented the wheel please don't force people to work with replacements that demonstrably don't work anywhere near as well.

I really don't think that an experimental branch of the Breeze icon theme is an unnecessary duplication of effort. It seems to me like all of KDE development is based on git repositories and different branches for new features. For example, the Breeze windeco is being worked on in a new branch of the Breeze repository right now. It's not ready yet but you can try it if you want or just use another windeco for the moment.

P

I like this, because this is exactly what I've doing (and successfully for that matter) for the past 2 years - changing things, over and over and over again, adding, removing, using different styles, different colors, shapes, my users are the very best way to show that (which by the way they are a lot). Whatever changes I've done to my own stuff have worked before, and that is because this isn't the first large artwork project that I do even when I don't have decades of experience. So as far as doing things that don't work as well, yeah... I know what I'm doing

Well if anyone else wants to redo the 600+ images already in Breeze because they're too edgy, be my guest. The names, the sources, the color palettes are there.

pepedopolous wrote:but the default icon theme should just work for any level of user

Given some REAL users i've seen, that means we got to place someone next to them to click the proper button for them - regardless of the icons.

Now, seriously: relax.
This is actually still in a very early state and we're currently ironing out things - that's why this forum exists.
Companies (and even schools) will unlikely run KDE5 in the very near future.
When they do, they'll usually have an IT that will be capable of rolling out some other icon theme if everything goes wrong.

pepedopolous wrote:please don't force people to work with replacements that demonstrably don't work anywhere near as well

You do see the logic circle in this demand, do you?
"demonstrably don't work" includes demonstration, ie. testing. So it's entirely ok to try out new things, see how they're receipted and incorporate and constructive criticism.
Uri has said AND PROVEN that he's following this concept.

So again: relax.

----
PS: Munich will btw. "re-migrate" to Windows 8 (maybe 10, iff they're smart)
If you don't understand why, look up how MS became such a big player - and the new major already *said* that he's a suitable official for that pattern.

Uri_Herrera wrote:
It does resemble more of copy and/or paste than cut.

That's why I added this modification (with the doc vanishing, bit like icons would in dolpin on "cut")

luebking wrote:

Uri_Herrera wrote:
It does resemble more of copy and/or paste than cut.

That's why I added this modification (with the doc vanishing, bit like icons would in dolpin on "cut")

I'd avoid anything that has to do with fading in monochromatic icons. It'd great too that screenshots of software using these test icons were posted.

Icons invariably lose their meaning when not used in the place they're meant to be seen.

luebking wrote:

pepedopolous wrote:please don't force people to work with replacements that demonstrably don't work anywhere near as well

You do see the logic circle in this demand, do you?
"demonstrably don't work" includes demonstration, ie. testing. So it's entirely ok to try out new things, see how they're receipted and incorporate and constructive criticism.
Uri has said AND PROVEN that he's following this concept.
So again: relax.

Exactly. Uri is welcoming towards ideas (if they are more constructive than "revert!"), and we're working together to improve any icons which may be problematic.

PS: Munich will btw. "re-migrate" to Windows 8 (maybe 10, iff they're smart)
If you don't understand why, look up how MS became such a big player - and the new major already *said* that he's a suitable official for that pattern.

I don't want the discussion to drift apart, but out of curiosity: Do you have a link to an article stating that they're actually going to migrate back to Windows? Because the latest info I have is that the mayor would like to see a migration back, but that the head of IT doesn't see it coming in reality.

Uri_Herrera wrote:

pepedopolous wrote:So do we have to be hostage to Uri's experiments?

I propose: -

Breeze Icon Theme (Default for Plasma 5). Minimal new metaphors. A minimum usability score of say 7...

Breeze Experimental Icon Theme (Optional). All the new metaphors you can handle! Change the system!

P

Yes! muahaha

FYI I don't reject changes, I do reject falling back to the same ol' same ol'.

Yet duplication of efforts is not what we need.. it's not what any project needs. And for that matter Oxygen it's still there for those old gear heads.

-------------------------------



There, scissors. it's already in the GitHub repo.

For me this single change shows a difference between a good designer and a great designer: knowing the limits.

You're definitely the latter for me!
Thanks.