luebking wrote:

Uri_Herrera wrote:I don't have a 1000 page study to show you, but, I can say that the icons being monochromatic and void of any other color (in most cases) should help the user understand the symbol quicker; the brain has less information to process and reacts quicker.

Apple had a *vast* discussion of that in their HIG - scratched after they started to violate it for... other reasons.
Caused some rants and you'll find a quote about the significance of shape. See eg.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2005/04/macosx-10-4/3/
http://inessential.com/2005/05/27/what_ ... ed_to_mail

Well, let's not break ours and add rainbow action icons

The floppy does look a little out of place in Breeze I think. On the other hand I don't like the folder with the small arrow either... Two reasons:

1) I think we should avoid overusing the folder metaphor. It's kind of outdated too because it is related to an office setting back in the days when they were full of folders. Also it's pretty boring, having folders everywhere does not make the desktop look sexy IMO (remember the file manager is already full of folders)...

2) The arrow is too small. The most prominent visual element is the folder, which does not make sense and it makes it too similar to other icons with a folder.

I think the concept of using an arrow to point to some abstract representation of a storage would be the most promising way forward. That would emphasize the action (the arrow) instead of an irrelevant visual metaphor (like a folder).

Tuukka wrote:The floppy does look a little out of place in Breeze I think. On the other hand I don't like the folder with the small arrow either... Two reasons:

1) I think we should avoid overusing the folder metaphor. It's kind of outdated too because it is related to an office setting back in the days when they were full of folders. Also it's pretty boring, having folders everywhere does not make the desktop look sexy IMO (remember the file manager is already full of folders)...

I really don't think or believe that 2 toolbar buttons (or 3 if you throw save as there) having the icon counts as having the folder icon everywhere. Sure, Dolphin uses a lot of folders and so does every Open dialog, but, they aren't monochromatic folders and the icon for the 16px mimetype folder is/was different than that of save. Besides being obviously smaller.

Tuukka wrote:2) The arrow is too small. The most prominent visual element is the folder, which does not make sense and it makes it too similar to other icons with a folder.

Every other element that goes there indicating an action is that size. The icons are generally using 1px strokes/lines. Make that 2px and it's already breaking the design, make that 3px for increased visibility and it's already totally out of place.

Tuukka wrote:I think the concept of using an arrow to point to some abstract representation of a storage would be the most promising way forward. That would emphasize the action (the arrow) instead of an irrelevant visual metaphor (like a folder).

Using storage is just as old (and we already discussed it just last page) as the floppy.

http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/ ... not-a-disk

luebking wrote:http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/323/new-generation-of-save-icon-that-is-not-a-disk

So.. basically the download icon.

The icon was promoted to be half-breed, ie. still floppy enough to be recognizable as one, but also abstract enough to ignore the floppy metaphor.

That aside: Personally, I do still not see a significant difference between "download" and "save".
"Download" means to save "from the internet" (what is pretty unsharp already) and "Save" means to download from RAM.

luebking wrote:The icon was promoted to be half-breed, ie. still floppy enough to be recognizable as one, but also abstract enough to ignore the floppy metaphor.

That aside: Personally, I do still not see a significant difference between "download" and "save".
"Download" means to save "from the internet" (what is pretty unsharp already) and "Save" means to download from RAM.

Well that makes two of us (or three).

At least three.

I don't really like the floppy at all to be honest, but I could live with that one icon I do not like and can understand if Uri did not want to invest any more time in this, given that there is a lot of work to do left and not everyone can be happy.
To express my opinion, I am still for the kind of download like icon, like I suggested initially and completely agree with luebking.

luebking wrote:http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/323/new-generation-of-save-icon-that-is-not-a-disk

It has been posted and discussed already at viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324646.

Everyone, as a topic creator I wholeheartedly accepted post of Uri: viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324643. Expect new hot topics sooner or later

Thanks everyone!

jstaniek wrote:It has been posted and discussed already at viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324646.

No, has not. Read closer:

luebking wrote:The icon was promoted to be half-breed, ie. still floppy enough to be recognizable as one, but also abstract enough to ignore the floppy metaphor.

jstaniek wrote:Everyone, as a topic creator I wholeheartedly accepted post of Uri: viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324643.

This:

Uri_Herrera wrote:I hate the icon and I hate that it is still in use.

is not a resolution, but implies tension. You complained and Uri relented with grief. Nothing more.

That's not a consensus nor changes the polarizing nature of this topic (apparently also completely outside the KDE context) and thus it will likely come up over and over again. Whether in this thread, or another.

And when it does, I'll take the freedom to drop in other suggestions for review until there's actually a consesus - and of course grant everyone else to state his constructive opinion and ideas as well.

luebking wrote:

jstaniek wrote:It has been posted and discussed already at viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324646.

No, has not. Read closer:

luebking wrote:The icon was promoted to be half-breed, ie. still floppy enough to be recognizable as one, but also abstract enough to ignore the floppy metaphor.

jstaniek wrote:Everyone, as a topic creator I wholeheartedly accepted post of Uri: viewtopic.php?f=285&t=123767#p324643.

This:

Uri_Herrera wrote:I hate the icon and I hate that it is still in use.

is not a resolution, but implies tension. You complained and Uri relented with grief. Nothing more.

That's not a consensus nor changes the polarizing nature of this topic (apparently also completely outside the KDE context) and thus it will likely come up over and over again. Whether in this thread, or another.

And when it does, I'll take the freedom to drop in other suggestions for review until there's actually a consesus - and of course grant everyone else to state his constructive opinion and ideas as well.

@luebking, You have all rights to add more to the topic and you're warmly welcome.

However I feel a deja-vu now since we covered the download topic this and that way. There's nothing new and I'd welcome new content in the topic.
For example we noted here already there's well designed and used folder-download icon that's close to what you presented above.

It's not also about a "complaining and nothing more", we've been able to accustom with results of formal usability test, that clearly presented how the widely known idiom works and whether the new metaphor is able to replace it. Then that was enriched with further discussion.

This discussion apparently repeated many times. One of better notes are about the fact the save icon is an idiom and not metaphor. [link]. We don't create idioms per se, people are learning their meaning first. [link] Also Björn tried to explain the core of the issue a bit.

Another thing is designers-in-us are not happy with the floppy, but there is evidence given here and elsewhere (more about that below) that value of the idiom prevails.

We're not closing the icon theme for modification, it's all opened. But advantages of a counter-proposal (I've not seen any convincing in this thread so far) must clearly outweight the risks.

Partially this discussion is largely about defaults. So to add something more constructive how about a "brave breeze" patch that can be installed by those that choose so? It can contain the alternative copy/paste/cut/save/etc. designs. It's all open and available through the Get New Themes KDE feature.

Cheers!

jstaniek wrote:It's not also about a "complaining and nothing more"

And I did no nearly say something like that - you even fully quoted my post, but let's do it again for the records:

luebking wrote:This:

Uri_Herrera wrote:I hate the icon and I hate that it is still in use.

is not a resolution, but implies tension. You complained and Uri relented with grief. Nothing more.

This is a statement on my perception of the resolution on this topic, not on your argumentation base.
Please don't make up random quotes that you want to counterproof. Thank you.

I think that using the donwload icon as the save icon (maybe with a sight difference as the one present in this page) is easily understandable by the users.
The usability survey presented as proof here shows an arrow pointing to a HDD almost as recognizable as the floppy so we can easily use that stylized icon. UNless peopl also aren't happy with that.

prosmaninho wrote:I think that using the donwload icon as the save icon (maybe with a sight difference as the one present in this page) is easily understandable by the users.

Originally save have been using the open icon with results measured in the formal test. So we've got a bit of evidence how re-using of icons works. Rarely. We humans scan the symbols briefly. To add to it, there are apps that use both download and save actions for totally different things (thing: torrents, KGet, Kexi...).