Hi!
Do we need more evidence? There are two:

1. Results of the great test http://user-prompt.com/extracting-the-dna-of-icons



The Save icons performs worst in terms of recognition for the faenza and breeze themes.

2. Personal test: I've been using breeze on medium-resolution desktops for everyday work, for 2 months or so. And have to tell you after this time I am not used to the breeze's Save icon - I have to stop at the button in the Save dialog for example and think. I am assuming it's because there are only a couple of pixels of difference between Save and Open (so opposite) icons:



(Is the shot a bit blurred? Good, this simulates how it's perceived in average by users.)

For typical toolbar it's as follows:



As you may remember I am often using the evidence of unexpected/unwanted similarity (and worst surprise, or how you'd call it) to raise concerns, this one is one of them, and a low hanging fruit for the process of fixing usability. And I like that it apparently worked nice for the cut, undo, redo icons. The user-prompt's result for breeze (last row) as presented on the first image indicates the past status already, now we have much better score I think. The usefulness of the these results as I see them is: they show we've been discussing on real issues and that we can be pragmatic.

Good!

jstaniek wrote:And have to tell you after this time I am not used to the breeze's Save icon - I have to stop at the button in the Save dialog for example and think.

Well, honestly...

I refuse to put back the floppy, that I really don't want to see in Breeze. It will never go away if people continue to use it. And at the expense of being cheeky I'd rather place a 5¼" floppy instead (for which I did made an icon). I've dropped it from all of my themes and haven't got a complain about it, most recently from Nitrux (which doesn't look like in the image as of now). Flattr and Compass never used it (and they were released some time ago).

But coming back to the quote, yes, that's what I'd expect to experience when I'm presented with something new. If for 14 years you saw a 3½" floppy icon you are sure to continue to expect to see that.

jstaniek wrote:

(Is the shot a bit blurred? Good, this simulates how it's perceived in average by users.)

Yes it is, the icon from your shot is being displayed at 16px, there's no 16px save icon. And another reason why I've never liked icons on these sort of buttons.

jstaniek wrote:

As you may remember I am often using the evidence of unexpected/unwanted similarity (and worst surprise, or how you'd call it) to raise concerns, this one is one of them, and a low hanging fruit for the process of fixing usability.

This one is a bit unfair though, if we were to place icons with a folder in them all would be confusing, besides, an inexperienced user would have to get a bit familiar with the toolbar for that user to remove the text labels.

Thanks for picking up this topic. I suggest to use a stylized floppy for save/save-as. Here is my submission to the contest:



I'm sure that real designers are able to create an improved version that fits into Breeze style. But if it's helpful here is the svg file: https://share.kde.org/public.php?servic ... 7967256025

Uri_Herrera wrote:This one is a bit unfair though, if we were to place icons with a folder in them all would be confusing, besides, an inexperienced user would have to get a bit familiar with the toolbar for that user to remove the text labels.

I see there's a group of users that disable text on toolbars (per preference or because the toolbar is big for example in KDevelop) as we've been discussing on other recent thread. The shot is from ridiculously small app (KWrite), designing for such apps is easier.

I am also assuming old configurations for toolbars is transferred to Plasma 5, so users that had no texts still won't have them regardless of the icon theme changes.

As I presented on the Save dialog screenshot, even with text on the button, it makes me think like "is this the save dialog or an Open dialog triggered by accident?

Why is that? Maybe basically because both open and save actions are in the top 10 of usage frequency e.g. according to the MS' research on 100k's of their users for the needs of then-new MS Office 2007. So anything that's barely different from the open icon is automatically assigned to the Open action.

I value your design and I'd also like to see replacement, but simple I don't believe there is one, nor that we have influence on user base (FOSS and the other 99% where we don't decide).

Adding to that that the arrow is enough of a difference in the icon, but anyways, I had already changed the icon earlier today and moved the arrow to the top.



You can see the comparison with save as.

And for the lulz.

Uri, can you please explain a little bit about your motivation for replacing the floppy? All I get so far is: "I do not like it" - but I do not understand the reason behind it.

Heiko Tietze wrote:Thanks for picking up this topic. I suggest to use a stylized floppy for save/save-as. Here is my submission to the contest:



I'm sure that real designers are able to create an improved version that fits into Breeze style. But if it's helpful here is the svg file: https://share.kde.org/public.php?servic ... 7967256025

Thanks!

As for the Save As action, to start with it: I don't believe it really needs an icon and to be in the toolbar by default (it rarely is there).

Moreover Simple by default suggests it's enough to have it put in the menu. And probably without icon since Save is in a whole "save" group (marked visually with separators).

Actually what information do the three similar icons carry?



Don't they make it harder to pick the top used action (i.e. the real Save)?

(look, the same applies to the Open Recent icon, there's already Open icon that nicely mark the whole "Open group")

The save-as icon of course has to be still available (because the theme demands it's present, apps reference it in the code) but maybe we can have a guideline what actions are most welcome in the toolbar and what not?

So wouldn't Save As work well without the icon (also in the menu)? Good thing is that if we change it in one place in KDE Frameworks it'll be applied to all apps.

I have no problem getting rid of the floppy. However, I'd expect an upwards pointing arrow in the "open" icon. That would really make things clear and intuitive imho.

bjoernbalazs wrote:Uri, can you please explain a little bit about your motivation for replacing the floppy? All I get so far is: "I do not like it" - but I do not understand the reason behind it.

The icon (top one) was my champion for the icon contest Heiko mentions (overshadowed by the TONS of iOS copies, literally they were 1:1 copies of the iOS icon for save, and there were some good choices too, ironically similar to the ones in Breeze). If they had allowed bigger images this was the entire text.

jstaniek wrote:

Uri_Herrera wrote:This one is a bit unfair though, if we were to place icons with a folder in them all would be confusing, besides, an inexperienced user would have to get a bit familiar with the toolbar for that user to remove the text labels.

I see there's a group of users that disable text on toolbars (per preference or because the toolbar is big for example in KDevelop) as we've been discussing on other recent thread. The shot is from ridiculously small app (KWrite), designing for such apps is easier.

I am also assuming old configurations for toolbars is transferred to Plasma 5, so users that had no texts still won't have them regardless of the icon theme changes.

As I presented on the Save dialog screenshot, even with text on the button, it makes me think like "is this the save dialog or an Open dialog triggered by accident?

Why is that? Maybe basically because both open and save actions are in the top 10 of usage frequency e.g. according to the MS' research on 100k's of their users for the needs of then-new MS Office 2007. So anything that's barely different from the open icon is automatically assigned to the Open action.

I value your design and I'd also like to see replacement, but simple I don't believe there is one, nor that we have influence on user base (FOSS and the other 99% where we don't decide).

Yeah, like myself, I enojy that feature in KDE Plasma to be able to remove labels and shed tears (ok, not to that extent that but I was relieved) when Gnome finally removed text labels from their toolbars.

I believe though, that users have to think, in order to use (and learn how to use) anything. If we're quick to shoot-down newer approaches for the icon we will never know how it will actually would have fared and will rely on playing it safe with the floppy.

I very much like Uri's icons and ideas, I do however also understand a bit of the criticism.
The problem is maybe with smaller sizes the folder shape which is a common denominator of all those icons, is too superficial. Maybe the ratio should be adjusted for smaller sizes for the arrows etc. to me more visible and prominent. On the first catch everyone just gets the folder the rest of the information is perceived at the second look.
With proper sizes that is not a problem.

jstaniek wrote:

Heiko Tietze wrote:Thanks for picking up this topic. I suggest to use a stylized floppy for save/save-as. Here is my submission to the contest:



I'm sure that real designers are able to create an improved version that fits into Breeze style. But if it's helpful here is the svg file: https://share.kde.org/public.php?servic ... 7967256025

Thanks!

As for the Save As action, to start with it: I don't believe it really needs an icon and to be in the toolbar by default (it rarely is there).

Moreover Simple by default suggests it's enough to have it put in the menu. And probably without icon since Save is in a whole "save" group (marked visually with separators).

Actually what information do the three similar icons carry?



Don't they make it harder to pick the top used action (i.e. the real Save)?

(look, the same applies to the Open Recent icon, there's already Open icon that nicely mark the whole "Open group")

The save-as icon of course has to be still available (because the theme demands it's present, apps reference it in the code) but maybe we can have a guideline what actions are most welcome in the toolbar and what not?

So wouldn't Save As work well without the icon (also in the menu)? Good thing is that if we change it in one place in KDE Frameworks it'll be applied to all apps.

It doesn't help that the icons are blurry though, I have to add them, but I do think that this sort of redundancy needs to be removed.

Uri_Herrera wrote:It doesn't help that the icons are blurry

Yes, maybe after we're done with ultimate look of the icons in larger sizes, this can be fixed by working on small icons (as in Oxygen that has separate 16x16 svg icons). But still what I wanted to mention most is that even sharp small icons are physically small, so it's easy to see only the primary symbol (in the Save case: folder) and not the secondary (the arrow, no matter big it is or where it's placed). We don't forget it's all more challenging since we moved to mono, do we?

jstaniek wrote:We don't forget it's all more challenging since we moved to mono, do we?

Hm ... what speaks against giving the secondary information a separate color?

jstaniek wrote:(the arrow, no matter big it is or where it's placed).

I wouldn't agree with that.

It's certainly more difficult with the closed folder shape, but I wouldn't say the position does not matter.

kdeuserk wrote:

jstaniek wrote:We don't forget it's all more challenging since we moved to mono, do we?

Hm ... what speaks against giving the secondary information a separate color?

That's a matter of design, breeze has specific use of very few colours.