I have tried out KDE plasma 5 and I am amazed how far it has come. With windows 10 on the horizon, I am surprised the metro UI looks strikingly similar to Plasma 5. However here are some pretty bold suggestions:

[*] On KDE, it seems like a tradition that most applications are named with K prefix (Kate, Krunner, Kwin, KSudoku) with the exceptions of few exceptions like Okular, dolphin (these are still confusing names). I would suggest to simply get rid of this notion and use friendlier names (Files, Reader? want to see less K's as possible). The user does not need to be presented with such confusing names in the frontend side when it comes to most used Plasma application.
EDIT: For example, It would be great if Plasma would have a file manager integrated properly, similar to what gnome did with nautilus. Instead of dolphin, a new name "File" could simply be adopted in the UI. The executable name could still stay dolphin. I believe a DE must have a file explorer natively

[*] By default, have a rectangular buttons in the window decorations and just close to the edge (similar to Windows 7). I am aware, there are some plugins to do this, however I would suggest it as a default adaptation. I feel, it is much easier for the user to move his mouse to a rectangular button rather than a circular one and the one is just touching the edge (this especially applies when the application is maximized, the user can simply move his mouse directly to the edge without the need to precisely move his mouse back to close button, this was bit of annoyance in breeze)

[*] Have superkey as a direct shortcut to open the launcher menu. Digging posts earlier tells me that this is rather a Qt problem.

[*] Have rounded edge in buttons in breeze by default. I don't know why a flat rectangular button with sharp edges is preferable over a rounded one. This just makes it harder to distinguish whether it is an actual button or not.

[*] Support desktop widgets in the launcher. This idea stems from windows 10 start menu.

These are just some off the top of my head. By no means I am suggesting it to look like windows. I am just suggesting whatever would be easier for the user. Personally I think, windows 10 has lots of UI inconsistencies (they don't show these in the adverts). The new metro control panel is just dumbed down and looks plainly horrible. There is no notion or use of frames, borders, panel. Everything just seems a label, hyperlink and only images snapped together and called next gen. This is so blunt and empty looking. This idea I think would fail as they are trying to get a universal look across tablets, desktop and phones. Desktops are desktops which needs details and configurability not some blunder looking settings like that of a phone. I don't want KDE to go the same road. Linux here now has the chance to catch up with the desktop battle.

I am pretty sure I might be bashed for my points but I only want to contribute for an improvement of this project.

Hello,

swoorup wrote:
[*] On KDE, it seems like a tradition that most applications are named with K prefix (Kate, Krunner, Kwin, KSudoku) with the exceptions of few exceptions like Okular, dolphin (these are still confusing names). I would suggest to simply get rid of this notion and use friendlier names (Files, Reader? want to see less K's as possible).

in my humble opinion names such as Files, Reader etc bring some problems:
1) if you need to search i.e. "Reader" in web you get poor results, instead search "Okular" give you more specific results;
2) KDE can't replace an application with an other without confuse names: i.e. if Konqueror was named "Files" what KDE should have done when Dolphin arrives? KDE should have rename "Files" "Files Next"? In general KDE Plasma is ship with some default applications but user can replace them with other apps;
3) Dolphin, Okular etc are integrated in Plasma but you can use them in other DE, for i.e. I use them with LXQt. If they are named "Files, Reader etc" adopt them in other context is more difficult.

Maybe the reasons for which KDE use specific names are just these.

alex-l wrote:Hello,

swoorup wrote:
[*] On KDE, it seems like a tradition that most applications are named with K prefix (Kate, Krunner, Kwin, KSudoku) with the exceptions of few exceptions like Okular, dolphin (these are still confusing names). I would suggest to simply get rid of this notion and use friendlier names (Files, Reader? want to see less K's as possible).

in my humble opinion names such as Files, Reader etc bring some problems:
1) if you need to search i.e. "Reader" in web you get poor results, instead search "Okular" give you more specific results;
2) KDE can't replace an application with an other without confuse names: i.e. if Konqueror was named "Files" what KDE should have done when Dolphin arrives? KDE should have rename "Files" "Files Next"? In general KDE Plasma is ship with some default applications but user can replace them with other apps;
3) Dolphin, Okular etc are integrated in Plasma but you can use them in other DE, for i.e. I use them with LXQt. If they are named "Files, Reader etc" adopt them in other context is more difficult.

Maybe the reasons for which KDE use specific names are just these.

I disagree.

1) There are so many applications that it is just cumbersome to remember/recall all of them. Applications can have a title and a brief description. When the user searches for Reader. How many results would he receive? When searching executable applications need to be prioritized rather than data files so the user is able to drill down the search.
BTW how many readers would he have in his system anyway? Easier to remember than Okular.

2) I am aware of that. Executable name can be named as original, but the application can be titled as a good generic name (Dolphin -> Files). Gnome 3 is already doing this. Again how many File explorer would he have anyway? Title that clash could be named to their executable name. Also by default KDE would try to assign generic names to its own repository of packages first rather than a third party or of other DEs.

3) Correct, Since executable name would be named as original, don't care about other DEs.

Profit?

Applications already have a short description (which is also searchable in the menu I think ...?), right?
I don't think it's a good idea to rename all applications to what they do. Imagine if Firefox, Chrome and IE all were called "Web Browser".

As a user, I don't like this naming scheme either, mainly for two reasons:
- I can't reliably find the application I was using again, e.g. file manager -- already today I have the problem that in some environments I launch a file manager and I don't really know if it's pcmanfm or thunar or nautilus whatever
- I can't search for help on the net when I have a problem with the application

scummos wrote:Applications already have a short description (which is also searchable in the menu I think ...?), right?
I don't think it's a good idea to rename all applications to what they do. Imagine if Firefox, Chrome and IE all were called "Web Browser".

As a user, I don't like this naming scheme either, mainly for two reasons:
- I can't reliably find the application I was using again, e.g. file manager -- already today I have the problem that in some environments I launch a file manager and I don't really know if it's pcmanfm or thunar or nautilus whatever
- I can't search for help on the net when I have a problem with the application

I am not saying to rename all the applications out there, Only one's that come with KDE plasma like kate, okular, konquerer. Renaming would be handled by the DE themselves. 3rd party applications would retain their original names. What I am basically referring to is, a DE like KDE should have its own default settings, networking frontend, file explorer. Dolphin can be named dolphin in its executable name, but when I search for files I should be able to access it.

Regarding the web browser, who thought Konqueror was actually a web browser. Again, named it whatever suits for the developer in the executable but for critical applications that needs tight integration with the DE, have it named properly. For 3rd party applications, PcManFM would simply be PcManFM.

swoorup wrote:Gnome 3 is already doing this.

In fact I think that was a wrong choice, it cause me lots of problems, in particular during the troubleshot searching on the web.

BTW you consider Dolphin, Okular etc as a part of Plasma, instead they are stand alone applications developed by KDE. In fact Plasma and KDE Applications have now different release cycles.

alex-l wrote:

swoorup wrote:Gnome 3 is already doing this.

In fact I think that was a wrong choice, it cause me lots of problems, in particular during the troubleshot searching on the web.

BTW you consider Dolphin, Okular etc as a part of Plasma, instead they are stand alone applications developed by KDE. In fact Plasma and KDE Applications have now different release cycles.

They had nothing but nautilus renamed to files. That was it. From a design perspective I think it is right. A file explorer I consider to be tightly integrated to DE.

swoorup wrote:Dolphin can be named dolphin in its executable name, but when I search for files I should be able to access it.

This I agree with. But that is easy enough without renaming the application itself (e.g. make description searchable, add tags, ...)

scummos wrote:

swoorup wrote:Dolphin can be named dolphin in its executable name, but when I search for files I should be able to access it.

This I agree with. But that is easy enough without renaming the application itself (e.g. make description searchable, add tags, ...)

Ok sorry for the previous confusions. Updated the original post.

swoorup wrote:I have tried out KDE plasma 5 and I am amazed how far it has come. With windows 10 on the horizon, I am surprised the metro UI looks strikingly similar to Plasma 5. However here are some pretty bold suggestions:

[*] On KDE, it seems like a tradition that most applications are named with K prefix (Kate, Krunner, Kwin, KSudoku) with the exceptions of few exceptions like Okular, dolphin (these are still confusing names). I would suggest to simply get rid of this notion and use friendlier names (Files, Reader? want to see less K's as possible).

Howdy, welcome to the forum!

We do have a discussion on creating various "Breeze" branded apps like "Breeze Music Player", "Breeze Calendar", but it's only for a few applications and not meant to replace things like Dolphin or Muon.

When it comes to agreement or disagreement on naming I don't think it's an opinion issue, because KDE is just a different thing than Gnome; Gnome is a desktop, KDE is a Framework. With Gnome, since they don't target their software to any environment outside Gnome, they just name those applications as if they are just desktop components. Plasma actually does the exact same thing with System Settings - it's just part of the desktop, so it has a generic name. You're not launching "UltraKonfig", you're launching "System Settings". Even though various applications are bundled with "KDE", they are made to work great in many environments and operating systems, meaning each one needs an identity outside of the KDE umbrella. This is doubly true now that Frameworks has been modularised, extending use further into other environments.

swoorup wrote:[*] By default, have a rectangular buttons in the window decorations and just close to the edge (similar to Windows 7). I am aware, there are some plugins to do this, however I would suggest it as a default adaptation. I feel, it is much easier for the user to move his mouse to a rectangular button rather than a circular one and the one is just touching the edge (this especially applies when the application is maximized, the user can simply move his mouse directly to the edge without the need to precisely move his mouse back to close button, this was bit of annoyance in breeze)

The hitboxes for the buttons are actually square, so you can do things like mouse-slamming without needing to wheel back into the circular area. Otherwise, the shape is more of a personal preference thing.

swoorup wrote:[*] Have superkey as a direct shortcut to open the launcher menu. Digging posts earlier tells me that this is rather a Qt problem.

The super key is used as a modifier on Linux, but you can do something like set super+space to launch it instead, use a function key, or a media key (such as home). I don't really consider this a technical issue as much as I consider it a workflow issue; Linux works a little differently than windows in this case - it's just a matter of finding an alternative you like.

swoorup wrote:[*] Have rounded edge in buttons in breeze by default. I don't know why a flat rectangular button with sharp edges is preferable over a rounded one. This just makes it harder to distinguish whether it is an actual button or not.

I believe there is some very slight rounding on the buttons. Either way, this falls back into personal preference a bit.

swoorup wrote:[*] Support desktop widgets in the launcher. This idea stems from windows 10 start menu.

I actually once wrote an article with this as an idea. It kind of worked, but actually doing the configuration for it in practice is a bit of a nightmare, and the value proposition wasn't there considering there are other ways to reveal plasmoids. Plasma widgets are also far less compact than the at-a-glance design of tiles, and are better suited to larger areas. Generally speaking, the smallest reasonable size for a Plasmoid starts at the largest size of a Windows tile.

There kind of meant for different things, and I learned that in my design exercise; you can visually beat them into place, but at the sizes required they lose functionality and convenience.

swoorup wrote:These are just some off the top of my head. By no means I am suggesting it to look like windows. I am just suggesting whatever would be easier for the user. Personally I think, windows 10 has lots of UI inconsistencies (they don't show these in the adverts). The new metro control panel is just dumbed down and looks plainly horrible. There is no notion or use of frames, borders, panel. Everything just seems a label, hyperlink and only images snapped together and called next gen. This is so blunt and empty looking. This idea I think would fail as they are trying to get a universal look across tablets, desktop and phones. Desktops are desktops which needs details and configurability not some blunder looking settings like that of a phone. I don't want KDE to go the same road. Linux here now has the chance to catch up with the desktop battle.

I am pretty sure I might be bashed for my points but I only want to contribute for an improvement of this project.

Thank you for your points! Just as a tip for suggesting things in the forum, you usually get the best response when you suggest one thoroughly thoughtful idea at a time, or post one issue at a time; when you give a "shotgun" post it kind of forces people to just reply to everything and doesn't really foster conversation as much. I personally did the same thing on my first post (shotgun-shelled ideas) and it didn't work.

You'll also want to make sure that you're putting any ideas into the correct forum; things like application names and shortcuts don't really have much to do with the VDG. If it's a usability concern we tend to get those points, but generally you may be best to look at the dedicated brainstorming area where some of this is much more appropriate. I would also try to avoid posting personal opinions or preferences as suggestions (such as preferred shortcuts or dropping the "K" in names). For the most part when suggesting a change the idea will generally fall out unless there's a larger goal in mind which is thoroughly explained - which is part of why bullet-lists don't work well, as it makes it much harder to explain a goal for individual ideas in detail.

Hope that helps!
- Ken

Kver wrote:

swoorup wrote:[*] Have superkey as a direct shortcut to open the launcher menu. Digging posts earlier tells me that this is rather a Qt problem.

The super key is used as a modifier on Linux, but you can do something like set super+space to launch it instead, use a function key, or a media key (such as home). I don't really consider this a technical issue as much as I consider it a workflow issue; Linux works a little differently than windows in this case - it's just a matter of finding an alternative you like.

It's a technical issue, there's a way to fix it, but I don't know if it works for Qt5.
That aside... saying that things are different on Linux is just wrong in this context. It's only different on Qt-based desktop environments. GNOME, CInnamon, Unity... they all use the meta key to open some kind of "menu". This should be default for KDE, too. There's also the thing about sane defaults. Why should I even be bothered? The meta key has no function in itself, so this is definitely something that should be fixed.

Yeah, it's a technical issue. IIRC I believe Martin said something about it being easier to fix (and thus make default) with the adoption of Wayland or libinput.

supaiku wrote:It's a technical issue, there's a way to fix it, but I don't know if it works for Qt5.
That aside... saying that things are different on Linux is just wrong in this context. It's only different on Qt-based desktop environments. GNOME, CInnamon, Unity... they all use the meta key to open some kind of "menu". This should be default for KDE, too. There's also the thing about sane defaults. Why should I even be bothered? The meta key has no function in itself, so this is definitely something that should be fixed.

Huh, I always thought it was a Linux thing. I guess it does make sense though. The more you know.

scummos wrote:

swoorup wrote:Dolphin can be named dolphin in its executable name, but when I search for files I should be able to access it.

This I agree with. But that is easy enough without renaming the application itself (e.g. make description searchable, add tags, ...)

App's descriptions are already searchable, I made a test just now with default start menu and KRunner, both let me to search into app's description Searching "File" show Dolphin too and it's the first result if I search "File" in Milou, so no problem here

Kver wrote:Huh, I always thought it was a Linux thing. I guess it does make sense though. The more you know.

I guess you could call it an X11 thing, ksuperkey just works around it by hijacking the modifier key and sending the appropriate key depending on what you press (by default, Super_L if you press another key while holding down Super, Alt+F1 if you release Super without pressing any other key). ksuperkey is only dependent on X11 and should work fine with Qt5 and Plasma 5 (although one user has reported some strange issues with Kickoff not closing, which I unfortunately can't test).

It's easy to make a hack to use the Super key for opening a menu (just look at ksuperkey), but it's not as straightforward to make it easily configurable. Given how much you can customize Plasma 5 and KDE applications, I don't think hard-coding Super to open the application menu is the best way forward, which is how it worked in KDE 3.x. The simplest solution would be to have a few options to enable this behavior in System Settings (I think I saw a discussion about this in the mailing lists a long time ago).

Regarding application names, doesn't the application menu show the application descriptions by default (e.g. Web Browser, File Manager, etc.)?