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a bit worried by the new vision statement

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kitsune09
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Hi

There's been such great work already done on Krita, but I found the new vision statement concerning to read; first, about the expanded areas intending to be covered, across large and sometimes too complicated platforms, yet there are so many threads about lag, and also about devices not working (or accommodated), and such as Wacom prioritised as best. With the lag/devices covered first, could expanded areas not be built up more easily from that, and there be less need to be dealing with the many requests for help about that, plus people wouldn't be waiting until next year for stability etc to be worked on? I realise not all devices can be tested, but, for example, some non-Wacom devices use similar, if not the same, drivers, and users' feedback is available. Would the lag/devices issues addressed more also ease the productivity levels people want more, as described in the vision statement?

I am concerned that people could be put off using Krita ... 'we have no interest in what you do with files' ... 'you have to master all the (complex) possibilities, even as a beginner' ... 'we won't let you dictate what Krita can do' (after countless people just donated to help Krita at a difficult time), and seeming to say features can't be voted on/that it may not be so collaborative a process?

I am genuinely worried at seeing real-world materials being dropped as inspiration, as Krita has been painting-centred software, and there is nothing else but Mypaint for painting on Linux. I worry some brushes may be dropped, but am thankful that app images are released and that there is always the choice about which version to use.

I mean no offence in any of the points I raise, but was genuinely surprised at the shift of focus and the tone of the vision statement. I want Krita to keep doing well, people to enjoy it, and the team to get all the good recognition they deserve too.


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TheraHedwig
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I am concerned that people could be put off using Krita ... 'we have no interest in what you do with files' ... 'you have to master all the (complex) possibilities, even as a beginner' ... 'we won't let you dictate what Krita can do' (after countless people just donated to help Krita at a difficult time), and seeming to say features can't be voted on/that it may not be so collaborative a process?


Huh? I thought we did state you can vote on features. However, we do wish to curate the features you can vote on, in the case some community decides Krita should be a word processing program and start spamming our development?

The complexity stuff is because we have a ton of people who don't even know that if they want to share their image on social media they need to save to png. More prominently is people who start working in 16bit and above and get upset with us for the disadvantages that working in 16 bit has: Export is wonky and these files take up a lot of ram. We cannot do anything about this, even the most theoretical of solutions would mean removing functionality for more advanced users in very crucial ways just because some people can't be bothered to read the manual.

The end file stuff is primarily because we cannot garantuee the ability to print on all systems. Printing API is too different on the different systems, and we'd feel like we'd be lying assholes if we implemented printing options badly.

I am genuinely worried at seeing real-world materials being dropped as inspiration, as Krita has been painting-centred software, and there is nothing else but Mypaint for painting on Linux. I worry some brushes may be dropped, but am thankful that app images are released and that there is always the choice about which version to use.

We're not gonna do that, we're just not gonna bend over backwards to include whatever paint simulation brush someone came up with because paint simulation brushes tend to be super slow and thus the direct opposite of the lag stuff. Instead, what we wish to do is focus on brushes that give cool results and textures, and give the artist new ways to express themselves, regardless of whether or not they have a real world equivalent.

We're always working on lag, and the included fields had already been included years so the vision statement is only just updated here.

Now for some minor points:

across large and sometimes too complicated platforms

I don't know what you mean by this?

some non-Wacom devices use similar, if not the same, drivers

This isn't true. We are surprised about it as much as you are, but tablet drivers are currently really really bad. We do not do anything complicated, but the drivers cannot even do uncomplicated stuff. There's actually someone who has been slaving away for the last month both implementing an alternative API for tablets as well as an alternative method for handling OpenGL(Angle) so we can try to combat the terrible driver issues on windows by providing alternatives at the very least.

Other than that, we spend a lot of time last weeks modifying different parts of the code to be faster and speedier. Furthermore, I don't know if you know this, but we're also always fixing bugs every release. What we just want to do for now is finish up the kickstarter promises we have and do nothing but bugfixing and polishing for a while. These will go hand in hand. Mostly also because many of us are Krita users ourselves, so we get annoyed/frustrated by bugs and crashes as well :)
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MR4Y
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The thing about tablet drivers is that almost all of the non-Wacom stuff, with maybe the exception of Huion and N-Trig based devices, have horrible drivers that barely play the part, on top of they only having Windows versions as well. And sometimes, even the Wacom stuff, depending on model, doesn't work properly and has bugs.
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kitsune09
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TheraHedwig wrote:However, we do wish to curate the features you can vote on, in the case some community decides Krita should be a word processing program and start spamming our development?

The complexity stuff is because we have a ton of people who don't even know that if they want to share their image on social media they need to save to png. More prominently is people who start working in 16bit and above and get upset with us for the disadvantages that working in 16 bit has: Export is wonky and these files take up a lot of ram. We cannot do anything about this, even the most theoretical of solutions would mean removing functionality for more advanced users in very crucial ways just because some people can't be bothered to read the manual.
The end file stuff is primarily because we cannot garantuee the ability to print on all systems. Printing API is too different on the different systems, and we'd feel like we'd be lying assholes if we implemented printing options badly.
We're just not gonna bend over backwards to include whatever paint simulation brush someone came up with because paint simulation brushes tend to be super slow and thus the direct opposite of the lag stuff. Instead, what we wish to do is focus on brushes that give cool results and textures, and give the artist new ways to express themselves, regardless of whether or not they have a real world equivalent.
We're always working on lag, and the included fields had already been included years so the vision statement is only just updated here.

Now for some minor points:
across large and sometimes too complicated platforms

I don't know what you mean by this?

some non-Wacom devices use similar, if not the same, drivers

This isn't true. We are surprised about it as much as you are, but tablet drivers are currently really really bad. We do not do anything complicated, but the drivers cannot even do uncomplicated stuff. There's actually someone who has been slaving away for the last month both implementing an alternative API for tablets as well as an alternative method for handling OpenGL(Angle) so we can try to combat the terrible driver issues on windows by providing alternatives at the very least.

Furthermore, I don't know if you know this, but we're also always fixing bugs every release. What we just want to do for now is finish up the kickstarter promises we have and do nothing but bugfixing and polishing for a while. These will go hand in hand. Mostly also because many of us are Krita users ourselves, so we get annoyed/frustrated by bugs and crashes as well :)


That isn't really answering the points I'm making, but, just to finish with this ... I'm obviously referencing Windows mainly, and the many issues people post here about that. I also started off by saying I know a lot of great work has gone into Krita, so am not unaware of the bug fixing. And tablet drivers are not bad for eg Yiynova/Ugee/other devices on Linux Mint, as I said the other day but was ignored again; devices work very well there, and it's the biggest distro, but you have made a nod to the 'complicated platforms' issue I was saying about, where drivers are very bad on Windows, which almost seems fruitless to spend so much time on, as something else just breaks on Windows, as it becomes a more and more closed system. I don't know if there is such a thing already, but the equivalent of an app image, with all drivers and possible files needed might solve the issues?

I'd made 3 donations and spoken well of Krita at different places since coming over to Linux 3 months ago, so won't be feeling guilty for the 'slaving away' or making out I don't appreciate all the bug fixes.

My points were lag/stability are posted about a lot, and addressing that more focussedly could help with other aims and with productivity and enjoyment. Also, concerns about how people are spoken to. Also concerns about the direction and that Krita don't want users 'dictating' this, and that apparently includes moving away from a painting/real media focus, yet there is only Krita or Mypaint on Linux. Also, I'd said I intend no offence and hope Krita expands in being a win win for all involved.

Last edited by kitsune09 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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kitsune09
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MR4Y wrote:The thing about tablet drivers is that almost all of the non-Wacom stuff, with maybe the exception of Huion and N-Trig based devices, have horrible drivers that barely play the part, on top of they only having Windows versions as well. And sometimes, even the Wacom stuff, depending on model, doesn't work properly and has bugs.


Yes, I hear that Windows has many issues with drivers. That is one reason I moved to Linux. Linux, which Krita runs on best and was originally built for and on, as far as I understand, has no issue with drivers, and Linux Mint, the top distro at Distrowatch, caters for any device; it's basically plug and play, no installings or hassle at all, in my experience and as I see often on the LM forum.

Krita becoming more Windows-based is a concern, as Linux users have Krita and Mypaint only. Windows users have many many painting programs. David Revoy himself, who has such a big input and influence regarding Krita, is entirely Linux/FOSS/painting, and that has been the focus for most of Krita's existence so far, as I understand it.

I'm unsure why there is the focus on Windows, when my signature clearly shows Linux, but good luck with the Windows drivers and problems.


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alvinwong
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01nanovolt wrote:
MR4Y wrote:The thing about tablet drivers is that almost all of the non-Wacom stuff, with maybe the exception of Huion and N-Trig based devices, have horrible drivers that barely play the part, on top of they only having Windows versions as well. And sometimes, even the Wacom stuff, depending on model, doesn't work properly and has bugs.


Yes, I hear that Windows has many issues with drivers. That is one reason I moved to Linux. Linux, which Krita runs on best and was originally built for and on, as far as I understand, has no issue with drivers, and Linux Mint, the top distro at Distrowatch, caters for any device; it's basically plug and play, no installings or hassle at all, in my experience and as I see often on the LM forum.

Krita becoming more Windows-based is a concern, as Linux users have Krita and Mypaint only. Windows users have many many painting programs.

I'm unsure why there is the focus on Windows, when my signature clearly shows Linux, but good luck with the Windows drivers and problems.

Uh... because like Windows still has over 75% market share on PC?

I don't see the problem. Making Krita work on Windows does not change the experience of using it on Linux at all, the core functionality is still shared across all supported platforms. Yes, Windows has bugs, and there is a lot of them, but none of those have anything to do with Linux, don't they?
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kitsune09
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alvinwong wrote:
01nanovolt wrote:
MR4Y wrote:The thing about tablet drivers is that almost all of the non-Wacom stuff, with maybe the exception of Huion and N-Trig based devices, have horrible drivers that barely play the part, on top of they only having Windows versions as well. And sometimes, even the Wacom stuff, depending on model, doesn't work properly and has bugs.


Yes, I hear that Windows has many issues with drivers. That is one reason I moved to Linux. Linux, which Krita runs on best and was originally built for and on, as far as I understand, has no issue with drivers, and Linux Mint, the top distro at Distrowatch, caters for any device; it's basically plug and play, no installings or hassle at all, in my experience and as I see often on the LM forum.

Krita becoming more Windows-based is a concern, as Linux users have Krita and Mypaint only. Windows users have many many painting programs.

I'm unsure why there is the focus on Windows, when my signature clearly shows Linux, but good luck with the Windows drivers and problems.

Uh... because like Windows still has over 75% market share on PC?

I don't see the problem. Making Krita work on Windows does not change the experience of using it on Linux at all, the core functionality is still shared across all supported platforms. Yes, Windows has bugs, and there is a lot of them, but none of those have anything to do with Linux, don't they?


Please refer to the concerns I'm stating, rather than make this about Linux/Windows. Many are coming over to Linux, and I am not going into all the reasons why.

When devs focus more on other areas and platforms, anything done can impact on the original program base, and I am clearly saying that there are only 2 painting programs on Linux ... if Krita goes more the Windows/non-painting way, there will be one small program. That is my point.


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Krita doesn't go the non-painting way... I wonder why you fear for that. It's just that what we originally thought would inspire us, the way people sketch and paint on paper and canvas, actually didn't work out: it turns out that digital artists are digital artists, and they want to be as productive as possible. So that part of our vision was obsolete. Yet... https://tantsevov.wordpress.com/2017/08 ... -it-works/
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01nanovolt wrote:
MR4Y wrote:The thing about tablet drivers is that almost all of the non-Wacom stuff, with maybe the exception of Huion and N-Trig based devices, have horrible drivers that barely play the part, on top of they only having Windows versions as well. And sometimes, even the Wacom stuff, depending on model, doesn't work properly and has bugs.


Yes, I hear that Windows has many issues with drivers. That is one reason I moved to Linux. Linux, which Krita runs on best and was originally built for and on, as far as I understand, has no issue with drivers, and Linux Mint, the top distro at Distrowatch, caters for any device; it's basically plug and play, no installings or hassle at all, in my experience and as I see often on the LM forum.

Krita becoming more Windows-based is a concern, as Linux users have Krita and Mypaint only. Windows users have many many painting programs. David Revoy himself, who has such a big input and influence regarding Krita, is entirely Linux/FOSS/painting, and that has been the focus for most of Krita's existence so far, as I understand it.

I'm unsure why there is the focus on Windows, when my signature clearly shows Linux, but good luck with the Windows drivers and problems.


My main focus in on Windows because, in theory, Linux users are more tech savy and can deal with driver issues on their own. Or at least that's what the vocal minority of the Linux community wants to make people believe.

As per the number of program options, I agree that's a bit concerning that you only have two "professional" painting programs on Linux even after all these years. But, at least those are actively developed and with developers you can actually reach (in theory). The apparent lack of programs is not so much a problem with Krita itself, but with a certain elitist, exclusivist and exclusionist attitude from the vocal minority of the Linux community, which fends off a lot of people that could help with these things, to the point that it surprises me half of the big Linux projects can even meet donation goals in the first place.
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It's _very_ easy to reach the krita developers :-)
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boudewijn wrote:Krita doesn't go the non-painting way... I wonder why you fear for that. It's just that what we originally thought would inspire us, the way people sketch and paint on paper and canvas, actually didn't work out: it turns out that digital artists are digital artists, and they want to be as productive as possible. So that part of our vision was obsolete. Yet... https://tantsevov.wordpress.com/2017/08 ... -it-works/


I've said I fear for that because there is only Krita and Mypaint on Linux. For at least a decade, Krita has been known as a really good painting program, and countless comments/reviews/videos have echoed that, plus I've often seen the Krita team and those associated stating strongly that it is a painting program, not a photoshop replacement etc. I don't know what has suddenly come in to change what made Krita so successful in the first place, but it seems cause for concern. Why not keep original and very successful painting-focussed Krita, and develop other programs separately, as seeming to cut out painting/one of the two Linux art programs, in order to cater to other platforms/preferences, I don't feel will go well?

Of course painting and sketching has worked out and is in no way obsolete; people literally have just given so much money to Krita, trusting that the painting focus would continue and that they could have input, also trusting that Linux support would continue innately, as from the beginning, and countless people for over 10 years have been using Krita for painting and drawing ... look at David's work, for example.

I am simply championing the painting focus that Krita so far had done really well at and bringing those clear concerns as feedback. Other programs can emerge, as there is a need for a strong painting-focussed program, especially on Linux ... if Krita can continue to take care of that, that would be great.


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TheraHedwig
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We never ever ever ever ever ever said that we would stop focussing on painting. It is just that digital painting and traditional painting are very different things, and we want to provide the best solution to be a painting program. I don't know where you are getting from that we may have ever decided not to make a painting program? Because that is what is confusing us?
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kitsune09
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MR4Y wrote:My main focus in on Windows because, in theory, Linux users are more tech savy and can deal with driver issues on their own. Or at least that's what the vocal minority of the Linux community wants to make people believe.

As per the number of program options, I agree that's a bit concerning that you only have two "professional" painting programs on Linux even after all these years. But, at least those are actively developed and with developers you can actually reach (in theory). The apparent lack of programs is not so much a problem with Krita itself, but with a certain elitist, exclusivist and exclusionist attitude from the vocal minority of the Linux community, which fends off a lot of people that could help with these things, to the point that it surprises me half of the big Linux projects can even meet donation goals in the first place.


I'm just new to Linux myself, and can grasp the basics needed for things to function, so am thankful that Mint makes things 'work out of the box' so well. I can't code, and just copy/paste into the terminal any simple things needed. I run only deb/app image/.sh files. Anything else is a fog, tbh. The vocal minority on Linux are often keen on coding and complexity, but newer users, or those not into coding, or who are younger/older, or who just want to be able to use it simply, really haven't the ability to do what the vocal ones enjoy.

Yes, it's worrying about there only being two programs, and that Krita's direction now seems to be away from painting and going to other areas more. Sorry to say but I'm not finding there's good responses, and the vision statement says they don't want users 'dictating' etc.

As an outsider and observer, I don't like the negative aspects of Linux users, but then I don't like negativity and ignorance anyway, which can happen anywhere. I'm not involved with those on Linux, or anywhere, that are off-putting and rude. If anything, I'm speaking for the general users, who just want to paint, and who aren't obnoxious at all. I just finished reading yesterday about youtube changes and many users with chromebooks being now unable to edit videos or maintain channels, and how sad they are about that. That's just one example of changes that don't really care about people just being able to get on and enjoy things anymore.

If it's helpful, there are many less vocal Linux users who genuinely support and appreciate good causes, and Linux is growing fast, with both software and gaming, in the last few years, so something's being done right. I'd advise not listening to the vocal ones, as they don't paint a true picture at all.


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kitsune09
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TheraHedwig wrote:We never ever ever ever ever ever said that we would stop focussing on painting. It is just that digital painting and traditional painting are very different things, and we want to provide the best solution to be a painting program. I don't know where you are getting from that we may have ever decided not to make a painting program? Because that is what is confusing us?


Vision statement page: "Gone is real-world materials as an inspiration, and in are our users as inspiration: we won’t let you dictate what Krita can do, or how Krita lets you do stuff, UX design isn’t something that can be created by voting. "

Also Boud's response above: "It's just that what we originally thought would inspire us, the way people sketch and paint on paper and canvas, actually didn't work out ... that part of our vision was obsolete."

Painters like the real-world traditional, in the digital form. That is the focus of many art programs that wish to appeal to painters.

The confusion is that Krita's vision statement is bringing up concerns that aren't being answered well yet. Please see the concerns I originally said.


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kamathraghavendra
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Hi 01nanovolt

1) Stability and improvement : this is on Krita teams radar and i believe they are doing their best to solve it even if they are short of hands right now. The next target is indeed zero bugs.

We still mention “files” explicitly; we’ve never really been interested in what you do with those files, but, for instance, printing from Krita just doesn’t have any priority for us. Krita is for creating your artwork, not for publishing it.

2) What they meant here is print and publication design is not meant for Krita, krita is for painting, you can use krita to make a portion of the design say illustration for the poster, but the layout of the poster and preparation of its print files is not Krita's target, for that there are other programs, best is scribus.

But the “for masters” often made people wonder whether Krita could be used by beginning artists. The answer is of course “yes”

3) We said it in plain statement that newbies are also our users and Krita is also meant for them, But meanwhile we also expect our users to learn Krita and become a master from a newbie.

Gone is real-world materials as an inspiration, and in are our users as inspiration

4) Here we are not aiming for real world media simulations etc but make it easier for users to do stuff easily and get the desired look in best possible way. It will be painting centered, It will have brushes that will help you try to achieve a painterly look, but it won't have liquid simulation and stuff.

Lastly I want to say we have not changed from a painting software to something else neither are the users disregarded. It is just that we wanted the vision to reflect digital painting, ease of use and user involvement. Some people are even misguiding the community by telling that Krita can be used for image manipulation, so this statement clears some of that too.

you can read the whole thought process in this mailing list thread
https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kimagesh ... 14943.html

(do read the thread in august too)

Don't be worried, Krita is still the same It won't be anything else, and users feedback won't be disregarded.

Last edited by kamathraghavendra on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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