jsalatas wrote:IMHO user friendly and customizing options are unrelated to each other, as a user friendly gui should work out of the box without the need for customization.

Well, for me, for example, your statement means definitely, that Plasma 5 out of the box must have theme Oxygen as its default theme, because I am absolutely organically unable to use the Breeze theme. But it seems that a lot of people will disagree with me, and this fact means definitely, that your cited statement is wrong.
Actually, a user friendly gui working out of the box without the need for customization is just imposible thing, because all users are quite different, and what is perfect for one can be the nightmare for another.

Menak Vishap wrote:Actually, a user friendly gui working out of the box without the need for customization is just imposible thing

So, based on that statement, I guess that android, mac osx and iOS aren't user friendly. Right?

jsalatas wrote:

Menak Vishap wrote:Actually, a user friendly gui working out of the box without the need for customization is just imposible thing

So, based on that statement, I guess that android, mac osx and iOS aren't user friendly. Right?

Exactly! You are absolutely right. And for sure they are not the examples which Plasma should follow.

jsalatas wrote:a user friendly gui should work out of the box without the need for customization.

That is impossible to achieve for default desktop settings just because people have different ways of using their machines and they use it for different purposes and have different aesthetics tastes. That means that user interface should be flexible enough to customize in an easy way. This easy way I call friendly way. Of course you can have the same result using configuration files but this is less friendly way = unfriendly way. If I can't customize I call it enemy way, because it doesn't work for me, it works against me.

For me also aesthetics (the beauty) is very important. When I stare at something a few hours a day I want to make it look good. Usually I change theme and wallpaper. But that's only a first step. Then I customize keyboard shortcuts. Only when I fully customize in terms of look and feel (feel also meaning how it works) I can call it user friendly. This is the time when I can enjoy working, when nothing annoys me, when system is my friend not my enemy that I have to constantly fight with.

But customization is not only about making it work. It is also about personalization, making it look different than others. People want to be individuals, show of their personality. That's way we like to look different, wear different clothes, have different interest, have differently looking things for the same function, like differently looking mobile phones, cars, etc. Psychology is also important here.

To be able to customize desktop for me means to express myself and as a result to enjoy working. That's why I want to be able to customize icons, fonts, their size and colour.

Let me quote:

Generally, the goal of user interface design is to produce a user interface which makes it easy (self-explanatory), efficient, and enjoyable (user-friendly) to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

jsalatas wrote:IMHO user friendly and customizing options are unrelated to each other,

As explained above for me user friendliness is very related to customizing options. Customizing options is a way to achieve user friendliness.

apache wrote:

jsalatas wrote:a user friendly gui should work out of the box without the need for customization.

That is impossible to achieve for default desktop settings just because people have different ways of using their machines and they use it for different purposes and have different aesthetics tastes. That means that user interface should be flexible enough to customize in an easy way. This easy way I call friendly way. Of course you can have the same result using configuration files but this is less friendly way = unfriendly way. If I can't customize I call it enemy way, because it doesn't work for me, it works against me.

For me also aesthetics (the beauty) is very important. When I stare at something a few hours a day I want to make it look good. Usually I change theme and wallpaper. But that's only a first step. Then I customize keyboard shortcuts. Only when I fully customize in terms of look and feel (feel also meaning how it works) I can call it user friendly. This is the time when I can enjoy working, when nothing annoys me, when system is my friend not my enemy that I have to constantly fight with.

But customization is not only about making it work. It is also about personalization, making it look different than others. People want to be individuals, show of their personality. That's way we like to look different, wear different clothes, have different interest, have differently looking things for the same function, like differently looking mobile phones, cars, etc. Psychology is also important here.

To be able to customize desktop for me means to express myself and as a result to enjoy working. That's why I want to be able to customize icons, fonts, their size and colour.

Let me quote:

Generally, the goal of user interface design is to produce a user interface which makes it easy (self-explanatory), efficient, and enjoyable (user-friendly) to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

jsalatas wrote:IMHO user friendly and customizing options are unrelated to each other,

As explained above for me user friendliness is very related to customizing options. Customizing options is a way to achieve user friendliness.

jsalatas wrote:So, based on that statement, I guess that android, mac osx and iOS aren't user friendly. Right?

I don't use mac osx and iOS but I use android and I had to root it to make it work the way I want it.

jsalatas wrote:a user friendly gui should work out of the box without the need for customization.

That is impossible to achieve for default desktop settings just because people have different ways of using their machines and they use it for different purposes and have different aesthetics tastes. That means that user interface should be flexible enough to customize in an easy way. This easy way I call friendly way. Of course you can have the same result using configuration files but this is less friendly way = unfriendly way. If I can't customize I call it enemy way, because it doesn't work for me, it works against me.

For me also aesthetics (the beauty) is very important. When I stare at something a few hours a day I want to make it look good. Usually I change theme and wallpaper. But that's only a first step. Then I customize keyboard shortcuts. Only when I fully customize in terms of look and feel (feel also meaning how it works) I can call it user friendly. This is the time when I can enjoy working, when nothing annoys me, when system is my friend not my enemy that I have to constantly fight with.

But customization is not only about making it work. It is also about personalization, making it look different than others. People want to be individuals, show of their personality. That's way we like to look different, wear different clothes, have different interest, have differently looking things for the same function, like differently looking mobile phones, cars, etc. Psychology is also important here.

To be able to customize desktop for me means to express myself and as a result to enjoy working. That's why I want to be able to customize icons, fonts, their size and colour.

Let me quote:

Generally, the goal of user interface design is to produce a user interface which makes it easy (self-explanatory), efficient, and enjoyable (user-friendly) to operate a machine in the way which produces the desired result. This generally means that the operator needs to provide minimal input to achieve the desired output, and also that the machine minimizes undesired outputs to the human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface

jsalatas wrote:IMHO user friendly and customizing options are unrelated to each other,

As explained above for me user friendliness is very related to customizing options. Customizing options is a way to achieve user friendliness.

jsalatas wrote:So, based on that statement, I guess that android, mac osx and iOS aren't user friendly. Right?

I don't use mac osx and iOS but I use android and I had to root it to make it work the way I want.

apache wrote:....different aesthetics tastes....

.... For me also aesthetics (the beauty) is very important.....

... That's why I want to be able to customize icons, fonts, their size and colour......

Aesthetics != user friendly

As explained above for me user friendliness is very related to customizing options. Customizing options is a way to achieve user friendliness.

So I guess you consider this to be highly user friendly. Right? Look how many options you are able to customize

Ok, let me put politics aside for a sec and let's go back to basics.

I'm using plasma 5 from 5.1 release. Up to 5.7.0 I didn't notice any changes in icon sizes in plasma systray. Then someone complained that his icons are too small and in BUGFIX!!! release 5.7.1 the minimal icons size was changed from smallMedium to medium. When KDE bugtracker and every linux forums on the internet were flooded with complaints from angry users, the VDG member said it's a wontfix because it's up to theme design not a user choice. So why it was changed in first place (in BUGFIX!!! release) ?

I admire John's efforts to fix this situation with the only possible solution - customization. But his efforts were watered down by the devs - the fix was hidden somewhere in config and after 15 years of linux experience I don't know which config and where without deep search on the web. Also it didn't make it to 5.7.2 and it's still waiting in master - who knows where it would end?

Finally let's go back to politics. I think it's rather fundamental problem because it's slaps you straight in the face every time you start a plasma desktop session and ruins your experience from the beginning so you don't forget it. Basing on history of flame wars between users and devs about simple but political things, I'm sure that it's a matter of time till we get proper fix. It's up to devs if they want this bitter fight to last for months or years rather than make peace and end this story now.

jsalatas wrote:

apache wrote:....different aesthetics tastes....

.... For me also aesthetics (the beauty) is very important.....

... That's why I want to be able to customize icons, fonts, their size and colour......

Aesthetics != user friendly

As explained above for me user friendliness is very related to customizing options. Customizing options is a way to achieve user friendliness.

So I guess you consider this to be highly user friendly. Right? Look how many options you are able to customize

I get the impression that either you want to ridicule me or you don't understand. I didn't say that Aesthetics != user friendly
I said that the way you achieve aesthetics, in this case consistent look of system tray icons with look of other panel elements may be user friendly or user unfriendly.

Yes, Plasma has many options to customise and of course this is something I enjoy and appreciate but such little things like lack of customizing icon size on system tray and panel makes Plasma look like unfinished product.

@acooligan is 100% right. I remember the same situation was about the size of icons in Dolphin panels. Instead of creating options devs react to the first complaint a then the wave of disgruntled users complain that it should be the opposite way.
Here you have the story:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=301959

Devs should draw conclusion from this old lesson.

As a user of Gentoo - I'm quite happy to re-write a package build script - if it doesn't work the way I want...

All I wanted is an easy way for novice users to customise their tray icon size (e.g. larger - for broken HiDPI support / visual impairment, or smaller - for OCD slim panels - like me). It's not like this is a new conversation - I was actively posting on the VDG forums - during early Plasma 5 Development. Apparently without any purpose...

But, but, but... I naively thought I'd chosen to the use FOSS's "premier configuration GUI-based desktop" and not some random Tiling Window Manager or Gnome Shell.

In times gone by KDE 4 had a look-n-feel and feature-set that surpassed Microsoft Windows 7. But it has saddened me to watch Windows 8.1 and now Windows 10 start to creep past the Plasma Desktop in both these areas.

Just as Plasma drops a whole bunch of features... Microsoft have clearly been "adopting" a whole bunch of features from the KDE-4 Desktop:

1. Full screen launcher - with move-able entries (Windows 10 Developer Preview)
2. Multi-monitor quadrant window snapping (which works better - because there's edge resistance - no X11 here)
3. File copy progress bar graph (this feature just disappeared with Plasma 5)

etc., etc.

Nobody thought Kate - my favourite text editor - needed drag-able tabs anymore... Why?
Who needs mult-desktop configarable wallpapers? Well I used this feature in KDE-4...

There's a tonne of these little papercuts in Plasma 5...

Also just for reference Microsoft Windows - has allowed users to set the size of the tray icons - from a GUI settings dialog since Windows XP. Because I've personally used this feature!!
You definitely don't need to hack about the registry to do this!!

Bob

jsalatas wrote:You don't need the patch. Just edit the file
/usr/share/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.plasma.private.systemtray/contents/ui/main.qml
and change line 34 from
property int itemSize: Math.min(Math.min(width, height),units.iconSizes.medium)
to
property int itemSize: Math.min(Math.min(width, height), units.iconSizes.smallMedium)

plasma 5.8.0
There is no such lines. How i can change size of the system tray icons?

Code: Select all

cat /usr/share/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.plasma.systemtray/contents/ui/main.qml     
import QtQuick 2.1
import QtQuick.Layouts 1.1
import org.kde.plasma.core 2.0 as PlasmaCore
import org.kde.plasma.plasmoid 2.0

Item {
    id: root

    Layout.minimumWidth: internalSystray ? internalSystray.Layout.minimumWidth : 0
    Layout.minimumHeight: internalSystray ? internalSystray.Layout.minimumHeight : 0
    Layout.preferredHeight: Layout.minimumHeight

    Plasmoid.preferredRepresentation: Plasmoid.fullRepresentation
    Plasmoid.status: internalSystray ? internalSystray.status : PlasmaCore.Types.UnknownStatus

    property Item internalSystray

    Component.onCompleted: {
        root.internalSystray = plasmoid.nativeInterface.internalSystray;

        if (root.internalSystray == null) {
            return;
        }
        root.internalSystray.parent = root;
        root.internalSystray.anchors.fill = root;
    }

    Connections {
        target: plasmoid.nativeInterface
        onInternalSystrayChanged: {
            root.internalSystray = plasmoid.nativeInterface.internalSystray;
            root.internalSystray.parent = root;
            root.internalSystray.anchors.fill = root;
        }
    }
}


yogsottot wrote:plasma 5.8.0
There is no such lines. How i can change size of the system tray icons?

edit the file ~/.config/plasma-org.kde.plasma.desktop-appletsrc
There should be a section like the following

Code: Select all

[Containments][179][General]
extraItems=org.kde.plasma.devicenotifier,org.kde.plasma.printmanager,org.kde.plasma.volume,org.kde.discovernotifier,org.kde.plasma.networkmanagement,org.kde.plasma.clipboard,org.kde.plasma.notifications,org.kde.kdeconnect,org.kde.plasma.
mediacontroller,org.kde.plasma.bluetooth,org.kde.plasma.battery
hiddenItems=org.kde.plasma.battery
iconSize=1
knownItems=org.kde.plasma.devicenotifier,org.kde.plasma.printmanager,org.kde.plasma.volume,org.kde.discovernotifier,org.kde.plasma.networkmanagement,org.kde.plasma.clipboard,org.kde.plasma.notifications,org.kde.kdeconnect,org.kde.plasma.
mediacontroller,org.kde.plasma.bluetooth,org.kde.plasma.battery


which contains a line

Code: Select all

iconSize=1

You can change that number and give it values from 0 to 5 which correspond to the size Small, SmallMedium, Medium, Large, Huge, Enormous respectively.

THANK YOU for that one. My icons are normal size now again (there was no iconSize yet but I found out where to add it, set it to 2 - back to how it was in 5.7).

And thanks to Markus S for googling that for me...