What is the probability of using KDE as the GUI for Darwin 8?

KDE 4 can be used on BSD flavours, there are some users who are running kDE 4 on their FreeBSD setup. As Darwin is a BSD deriative you might have some luck running it.

It hasn't been tried by anybody on the forums as far as I know. There are examples of KDE running on OS X, I'm not sure how much the implementation of Darwin in OS X differs from the source distribution.

mensch wrote:KDE 4 can be used on BSD flavours, there are some users who are running kDE 4 on their FreeBSD setup. As Darwin is a BSD deriative you might have some luck running it.

It hasn't been tried by anybody on the forums as far as I know. There are examples of KDE running on OS X, I'm not sure how much the implementation of Darwin in OS X differs from the source distribution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that OS X is the GUI from Apple running on top of Darwin x.x and, from my studies, have discovered that Darwin appears from the command prompt. I agree with you in your statements concerning KDE and BSD derivatives in so much as my explorations have proven the implementations. I have systems running BSD derivatives for testing. As good as KDE and Gnome are I'm wondering if KDE, my choice of GUI's, could be ported to Darwin as OS X has been. It truly is a mistake that Apple does not make the OS X versions available for sale to the Intel and AMD community as Microsnot and the Linux distros. In the past, Apple provided a SDK version available, but is not longer within reach. Seems Apple could greatly profit from the OS X product if they follow and improve upon the Microspit marketing model. Pardon me, but I deliberately misspell Microsoft to reflect my reverence for the product. Thank you for your thoughts. If you have more, please send them.

Thom wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that OS X is the GUI from Apple running on top of Darwin x.x and, from my studies, have discovered that Darwin appears from the command prompt.

I think one should see OS X as the complete package. The GUI of OS X is called Aqua and runs on top of Darwin. Aqua is proprietary and closed software, while the source code for Darwin - which is at it's core a FreeBSD variant - has been made public. I'm not sure if they were bound by the BSD license to publish the source code, but they did make it available including the modifications from Apple which makes it Darwin instead of a true BSD version.

After installing Darwin you'll probably end up with nothing more than a command line. So it might be better to switch to a more supported version of BSD on which to run KDE. I've long wondered what the added value of running Darwin, instead of say FreeBSD, would be. The only added value I can think of is Aqua and the rest of the proprietary modifications Apple has done.

It's hard to say whether or not Apple should open OS X to other platforms they don't control. Getting you OS to run well on different hardware specifications is quite a feat and can be burden too - see Microsoft struggling with Windows and the mountains of legacy code they have to support, for example.

As for running KDE on Darwin, you might try getting the FreeBSD packages (not sure if there are any, but I believe there are) to run, or compile the source yourself to see if it runs - if you're willing to do that of course.

mensch wrote:

Thom wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that OS X is the GUI from Apple running on top of Darwin x.x and, from my studies, have discovered that Darwin appears from the command prompt.

I think one should see OS X as the complete package. The GUI of OS X is called Aqua and runs on top of Darwin. Aqua is proprietary and closed software, while the source code for Darwin - which is at it's core a FreeBSD variant - has been made public. I'm not sure if they were bound by the BSD license to publish the source code, but they did make it available including the modifications from Apple which makes it Darwin instead of a true BSD version.

After installing Darwin you'll probably end up with nothing more than a command line. So it might be better to switch to a more supported version of BSD on which to run KDE. I've long wondered what the added value of running Darwin, instead of say FreeBSD, would be. The only added value I can think of is Aqua and the rest of the proprietary modifications Apple has done.

It's hard to say whether or not Apple should open OS X to other platforms they don't control. Getting you OS to run well on different hardware specifications is quite a feat and can be burden too - see Microsoft struggling with Windows and the mountains of legacy code they have to support, for example.

As for running KDE on Darwin, you might try getting the FreeBSD packages (not sure if there are any, but I believe there are) to run, or compile the source yourself to see if it runs - if you're willing to do that of course.

Your posts greatly enhance my understandings and I appreciate you making me aware of Aqua. I am not familiar with Aqua, but will be today after some research.

I have FreeBSD and PC-BSD running on two systems in my lab for testing purposes and are doing very well. I'm not a developer so my skills are limited. My studies are ultimately aimed at running OS X on x86 systems without having to purchase a system from Psystar, (Psystar.com). My experiments have exposed certain restrictions, for example, OS X may be looking for PowerPC cpu's upon initial program load which cause it to stall. Or, on the newer Intel Mac's, possibly Apple's BIOS which permit OS X to load. If I installed Darwin on a spare x86 system and somehow figured out a way to install KDE 4 to establish a GUI, would it be functional? Just as Microsnort developed Windows 3.1 to overlay, I think, DOS 3.x. It would boot to a DOS prompt, then start Windows by entering "win" . I hope my memory is correct on that.

Well, I just finished installing Darwin on a spare x86 system with success and boots to a command prompt. Now, I'm wondering if KDE 4 can be installed over it.

If KDE successfully installs it's a safe bet it will be fully functional. You'll get a login manager allowing you to choose a user and which session (KDE) to run.

Have a look at the FreeBSD pages for KDE it might point you in some directions.

As for running OS X on x86 hardware, good luck. There have been some efforts, but my understanding is that hardware is an issue, not everything is supported. And Apple has indeed implemented some restrictions to prevent its OS from running on generic hardware.

mensch wrote:If KDE successfully installs it's a safe bet it will be fully functional. You'll get a login manager allowing you to choose a user and which session (KDE) to run.

Have a look at the FreeBSD pages for KDE it might point you in some directions.

As for running OS X on x86 hardware, good luck. There have been some efforts, but my understanding is that hardware is an issue, not everything is supported. And Apple has indeed implemented some restrictions to prevent its OS from running on generic hardware.

INCORREEEEEEEEEEECT

OS X does indeed run on x86 hardware and has done so for a while. What's more KDE4 also runs with the native aqua interface (thanks to Qt4).
The installation if using macports is now extremely simple and consists of doing something as simple as "sudo port install kdelibs4"
Also there are packages for 4.1.2 on the mac.kde.org home page and 4.2 packages will also be made available eventually.

P.S. I believe what you meant to say is Apple restricts OS X to run on their x86 machines
As for Darwin, if you're looking for a fully functional environment, I've heard that it's not very good and you'll save yourself a lot of heartache just using linux.
As mensch pointed out darwin without aqua is of little value if you want to do more than play around with the system. Go linux, go BSD, but whatever you do, don't expect a lot if you go with Darwin.

P.P.S. why would you want to use Darwin anyway? What features does it provide that other operating systems do not?

illogical wrote:INCORREEEEEEEEEEECT

Wel not quite. :-P
The situation I described involved running KDE on Darwin, without Aqua present. Thom was referring to running KDE on a barebones install of Darwin without any GUI and proprietary packages from Apple. I know KDE on OS X/Aqua is geared towards integration instead of replacement of the GUI Apple packages.

The installation if using macports is now extremely simple and consists of doing something as simple as "sudo port install kdelibs4"

Macports is also available for Darwin so you might be able to install KDE quite easily, provided all the packages are there.

P.S. I believe what you meant to say is Apple restricts OS X to run on their x86 machines

Ah yes, that's what I meant to say.

Go linux, go BSD, but whatever you do, don't expect a lot if you go with Darwin.

I agree, the only added value is Apple's GUI which you won't get without paying money for an official OS X disc. I'm not sure if the Darwin source is even maintained anymore. I believe the original maintainers were frustrated with Apple not releasing updates to Darwin in conjunction with the company's proprietary releases. The last official release was in 2007, not sure if they will make another.

Thom,

did you checked the url http://www.finkproject.org ?

Umm... Just one minor problem.

To start off with there have been a few good Darwin attempts, most used KDE, and another one used Gnome... But most of them died because Linux is more useable.
Why?
Not because Aqua, the GUI, had been swapped for KDE... Otherwise why would OS X allow you to install KDE?
It's because Darwin IS NOTOS X!

OS X has three primary things that Darwin has not got.

1. Aqua (The previously discussed GUI.)
2. Cocoa Libraries. (Non-free Apple produced libraries which allow OS X programs to run.)
3. Carbon Libraries. (Non-free Apple produced libraries which allow OS X programs to run.)

Carbon and Cocoa aren't open source... Even Apple's version of an open source license they wouldn't be released under... Why? Because then OS X could be built on Darwin, an open source GUI such as KDE applied and then you have the OS X operating system.

The question this topic asked has been answered, yes you can install KDE on Darwin. However... Doing so just gives you a GUI. Not a Osx86 or similar.

Any one have any luck getting the latest release to work?
I notice they have a nice KDE.mpkg now, but when I try to install it it just says "There were errors installing the software".
I had some of the earlier build running and it seemed to be coming along rather nicely.
Perhaps I'll try to install the individual packages and see if that works…

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