musonio wrote:How about "patrobertsons"?

I love it

0. - "I personally have always liked KDE over the competitors!"
1. - "I have lately become sick of reading posts from users who complain about KDE4..."
2. - "What gives you the right to be rude to people who are working pro bono..."
3. - "Like the ones who want KDE-3.5.x to still be supported."
4. - "They don't understand that things evolve over time."
5. - "I feel like we need a name for these people, these people that dont want to adopt new and better things"
6. - "I will say one final thing and thats with the new KDE it seems like you can do ANYTHING with the desktop"
7. - "You want it to look like Windows XP? Done, Windows 7? Done, OSX? Done"
8. - "I'm sitting here, running with the desktop cube, the snow effect active,..."
9. - "I can see your point about the old menu style"
10.- "How about 'patrobertsons'?'

On these thoughts I can say the following:

I personally have always liked KDE over the competitors!!! @(0)

But I have lately become sick of TRYING KDE4@#$%!$#%@!!! @(1)
And after 3 (!!! three !!!) years KDE4 does not work!!!

You took KDE 3.5 from me, which worked OK!
You FORCED me to use KDE4 .@#$%@#!!! (openSuSE 11.x,...)
You have the same logic as the $.Bill.
Now, WE will offer you a new DE, that will work, as it should be, for 10 years from now!
We do not wont to support KDE 3.5!?! It's so boring.
Let's go from the beginning. With the new tools and new fresh ideas!

And what if the NEW, basic idea was wrong?

And I am stupid becouse of, KDE 3.5 works fine for me? @(3)
I am stuck in between GNOME and KDE 4.@#$#$%@!!!

KDE 4.@#$%$%#!!! is UNsuccessful revolution, NOT EVOLUTION! @(4)

NEW, DOES NOT MEAN BETTER!!! @(5)

OK, develpo KDE 4, but DO NOT THROW KDE 3.5.x!
Rewrite KDE 3.7 with NEW tool( QT 4.x ), see what can be done, and than proceed with KDE 4.7!!!

Working pro bono! Maybe PRO, but, BONO? @(2)
Who authorized you to develop KDE in such a way that it is KDE4.@#$%$%#@!!! now?
Why GNOME community does not have this problem. I do not like GNOME,
and never used it, but their community does not have this problem.
Someone, make us an IDIOTS, put himself in the role of God and leave us without useful DE!

KDE now becomes what GNOME has become earlier. DE of imagined group of people.
QT 4.x is a great tool. But you did a bad job, or you overvalued yours capabilities.
Stop waste time and other resources.

Yes, "...new KDE it seems like you can do...", but IT CANNOT! @(6)
Who need to resize image with fingers? $.Bill ?!? Who else?
And at the same time, it cannot do the basic jobs over the file, without frustration!

I want it to be functional (TO WORK), as KDE 3.5 was functional(WORK) @(7)
LOOK is less important!

Running desktop cube, with the snow effect! Wow!?! @(8)
Very, very useful. Can you copy files from one place to another, without frustration?

New menu?!?
When I return to previous menu (mistaken selection), I do not know from which I come? @(9)

Naming people, will solve all your problems?
How about: "Can you copy files from one place to another, without frustration?" @(10)

Guys, are you lost! Which episode?
If you want to play, write the games, not DE!

I wrote this because I LOVE KDE, but not 4.@#$%$#$%@!!!

Your sincerely.

P.S. Revision number for KDE 4 is:FRUSTRATION ( KDE 4.FRUSTRATION )

Utter rot. Nobody forces you to do anything. You like KDE 3? Then go and use a distro that offers KDE 3. You won't have the latest and greatest versions of applications, because developers enjoy working with KDE 4, just as many of us users enjoy working with KDE 4. But get rid of this idea that you are a victim. You make your own choices. You don't have to like ours.

My statement about the special effects was indicative that my system was perfectly happy to allow me to do my work whilst it happily doing everything it can to distract me through special effects.

Attempting to do the same through GNOME leads to my machine dying.


By contrast, KDE 3 does seem quite capable, but to me, at least, it's ugly, slow and full of hacks. (many of them inserted over the years to keep up with features)

(First i thought this would become an ASCII art contest post...)

beo wrote:On these thoughts I can say the following:

I personally have always liked KDE over the competitors!!! @(0)

But I have lately become sick of TRYING KDE4@#$%!$#%@!!! @(1)
And after 3 (!!! three !!!) years KDE4 does not work!!!

You took KDE 3.5 from me, which worked OK!
You FORCED me to use KDE4 .@#$%@#!!! (openSuSE 11.x,...)
You have the same logic as the $.Bill.
Now, WE will offer you a new DE, that will work, as it should be, for 10 years from now!
We do not wont to support KDE 3.5!?! It's so boring.
Let's go from the beginning. With the new tools and new fresh ideas!

And what if the NEW, basic idea was wrong?

And I am stupid becouse of, KDE 3.5 works fine for me? @(3)
I am stuck in between GNOME and KDE 4.@#$#$%@!!!

and xfce and many others out there.

KDE 4.@#$%$%#!!! is UNsuccessful revolution, NOT EVOLUTION! @(4)

let me quote wikipedia:

Evolution is the product of two opposing forces: processes that constantly introduce variation in traits, and processes that make particular variants become more common or rare. (...) Two main processes cause variants to become more common or rare in a population. One is natural selection, which causes traits that aid survival and reproduction to become more common, and traits that hinder survival and reproduction to become more rare

Like annew already said 3.5 is still there, and some freaky tests showed you can even today compile and run KDE2.x if you wish to.
What we have are just different processes, and the developers decide where they put their limited time and energy in, and what makes more sense to them. So indeed, it IS evolution.

NEW, DOES NOT MEAN BETTER!!! @(5)

OK, develpo KDE 4, but DO NOT THROW KDE 3.5.x!
Rewrite KDE 3.7 with NEW tool( QT 4.x ), see what can be done, and than proceed with KDE 4.7!!!

Find the people willing to do it and it is still possible

Working pro bono! Maybe PRO, but, BONO? @(2)
Who authorized you to develop KDE in such a way that it is KDE4.@#$%$%#@!!! now?

Those who do the work. Please get familiar with how open source works.

Why GNOME community does not have this problem. I do not like GNOME,
and never used it, but their community does not have this problem.
Someone, make us an IDIOTS, put himself in the role of God and leave us without useful DE!

KDE now becomes what GNOME has become earlier. DE of imagined group of people.
QT 4.x is a great tool. But you did a bad job, or you overvalued yours capabilities.
Stop waste time and other resources.

"stop waste resources" - that is why most of the devs decided to dedicate their time on the KDE4

Yes, "...new KDE it seems like you can do...", but IT CANNOT! @(6)
Who need to resize image with fingers? $.Bill ?!? Who else?
And at the same time, it cannot do the basic jobs over the file, without frustration!

I want it to be functional (TO WORK), as KDE 3.5 was functional(WORK) @(7)
LOOK is less important!

Running desktop cube, with the snow effect! Wow!?! @(8)
Very, very useful. Can you copy files from one place to another, without frustration?

New menu?!?
When I return to previous menu (mistaken selection), I do not know from which I come? @(9)

Naming people, will solve all your problems?
How about: "Can you copy files from one place to another, without frustration?" @(10)

Guys, are you lost! Which episode?
If you want to play, write the games, not DE!

I wrote this because I LOVE KDE, but not 4.@#$%$#$%@!!!

Your sincerely.

P.S. Revision number for KDE 4 is:FRUSTRATION ( KDE 4.FRUSTRATION )

@beo - what the KDE3 camp refuses to accept is that there are plenty of reasons why the devs decided to drop the code and start from scratch for KDE4. Primarily it was because (as Dante Ashton eluded to) the codebase itself was becoming unwieldy - bloated, full of hacks, hard to maintain and hard to add anything new. They needed to do something to get over these problems with the code and rather than try and spend years refactoring the code, updating to use QT4, etc., with little or no improvement or innovation that would be noticeable to the end-user they took the more drastic route of starting from scratch using the latest and greatest technologies available, designing a system that would allow them to get to where they are now. I can assure you that it would have taken them many more years to get the KDE3 codebase to a state where they could add the things that have been easily implemented KDE4 already.
Yes, there have been bumps along the way. Yes, KDE4 is not KDE3 and there are still many things that worked fine in KDE3 that don't in KDE4 - workflow habits will need to be changed and you will need to spend some time acquainting yourself with the new desktop, but we feel that if you spend the time to learn KDE4 (esp. versions 4.3 and later) your time will be rewarded as you can do more to shape the desktop to your work than with any other desktop. Yes, there are still some few linux distributions dedicated to KDE3 for those people who refuse to accept the changes that were made and if you are one of those who refuses to use KDE4 because you have been bitten once-too-many-times by bad upgrades (earlier - KDE4.0 and 4.1 this was due to early-adopting distributions adopting the new desktop too early; lately it is more due to bad upgrade paths or incomplete implementations by distributions) then you can look for one of those distributions and continue to live in your KDE3 bubble.
We will continue to push KDE4 forward, adding more features to help us shape the desktop to what we want. If there is something that doesn't work the way that you expect it, we welcome you to highlight those things. If they are truly bugs then we will change it, if they are only differences between KDE3 and KDE4 then we will assess the two different ways of doing it and chose the better way.

@neverendingo Couldn't agree more.

Just never understood why people just rant and be rude and say it sucks, it SUCKS etc. Instead of saying or even writing a bunch of bug reports to do KDE developers a favour by showing them where exactly the problem is, how to reproduce it etc. So the KDE Developers could fix it and make it much better. I don't know why being rude is "the only way" you think it can fix something.

Listen, if you dont want to write a bug report; fine. We'll listen to calm and logical statements. Your posting does literally seem like one of the results from the Infinite Monkey hypothesis.

The KDE devs did what many devs are afraid to do; dump the codebase and start again from scratch.

We have Plasma, a fantastic, highly adjustable and customizable desktop system; Phonon, Solid...I've got a brand spanking new desktop, using modern technology.

You, Sir or Ma'am, sound at though your crying about the technology you care about getting old and outdated. I understand that. But you'll have to understand thats how technology works, it evolves. KDE 4.X is sane and stable and modern. It may not be KDE 3+ just yet, but it's almost there. Now if you and others like you would PLEASE stop driving away these developers who pour their heart and soul into these projects, I would appreciate it.

And if your STILL unhappy with KDE 4, why don't you ask the developers to refund your money?

Oh wait.

They were doing it for free...


In the world of F/OSS, you have no right to complain; I already said that a developer, by default, cares about his program and it's audience, but he is not dependant on it for income. If you hassle them enough, then you'll kill it. You have not paid for this software, the developer is not in a legally binding agreement to do anything for you. It is software that they have developed, if it isn't fit for purpose, then file a bug.


*sigh*


I'm just going to LOVE when GNOME 3 comes out, I'd suggest everyone gets their surfboards because I am honestly predicting a riot there, if F/OSS is mainly filled with people like the offending poster.

Dante Ashton wrote:In the world of F/OSS, you have no right to complain;

Well, not exactly - they still have a right to complain. They just can't expect anything to happen from their complaints - GIGO (since as Dante said you aren't paying the developers anything).

Well, to further it in this context; you have no right to complain if a program's development is going somewhere you in particular have a problem against. You have every right to complain if said program could cause troubles for other users in the future.

It's a bit hard to define, but still, I hope that gets my point across.

"Instead of saying or even writing a bunch of bug reports to do KDE developers a favour by showing them where exactly the problem is, how to reproduce it etc."

Have you looked at the bug report list? There's not much more useless than reporting a kde bug. For years, kde3 bugs have been ignored because either "We need to re-write the whole thing -- and we'll wait for kde4" or "kde4 is on the way and that will fix the bugs". Now "There's too many kde4 bugs".

Face it, kde3 was badly factored for evolving it, and kde4 was done as one big chunk which makes it a PITA. So yeah, folks get **** off that they've invested time, just to continually update to introduce new bugs without fixes to their old bugs. Sure, the developers have the right to do whatever they want -- but users have an equal right to rant -- and everyone can ignore each other, as they have for years.

Unfortunately, I have my work flow trapped with kontact, and replacing everything with xfce would take a huge chunk of time.

The approach of the folks working on DE's in X is just stupid. You've got the mega-systems of gnome and kde, taking the OSX approach of tightly integrated systems that only works for commercial, top-down projects. No one has spent the years building the piecemeal infrastructure in the same way the kernel was developed -- everyone gets distracted by cool graphics and "it just works" nonsense. It just doesn't work in the open bazaar ecosystem -- and the bright lights who've had 3 or 4 generations of it, still can't seem to figure it out.

Yeah -- it's frustrating watching people **********. What a waste.

Most of the bugs filed by me have been seen to (with the remaining being wishlist items) and treated as a WONTFIX (and a very good, understandable reason provided) or as something later implemented and built upon.

The KDE Bug-squad does an excellent, if thankless, job.

Now, tightly integrated systems? Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's up the a distro to decide what software to install on it's base. The kernal is devised of hundreds of thousands of lines of code, written by many different people.

Now, answer me this before you start shouting and screaming...have you ever worked on code half finished by a previous developer? Was it easy? If it was, what bloody language was it in? Code is like writing of the mind, it works, though you've got no idea why a developer did it THAT way. Expecting a group of random developers to work together over time on one bit of code is one thing, but developers who simply design their items bit by bit and slot them in with all the others?

*sigh*

Go get a few friends, and write down the first sentence of a story, fold that bit up and pass it onto a 2nd friend with the same instructions, if only to write the second line of the story.

You've told them that the story is about a princess in a castle.

Whilst the end result might MENTION there being a princess in a castle, the parts that make it up certinatly won't match.

That's a piecemeal story; the kernel, by contrast, was not written 'line by line' but 'chapter by chapter'.

Please at least TRY to understand that everyone here is not your intellectual inferior.

I just want to say a couple of things.
I'm one of those people who prefere stability over anything else. A week ago I moved from my oh-so-stable Lenny because I was feeling that the world was changing and I was sitted in my old chair a little too long.
So, I perform a minimal Debian installation and then a minimal KDE installation. All seemed to work fine, so I took the next step: OpenGL drivers, plasma and KDE crazy effects enabling.
I would like to express the way I feel about it:

OH MY GOD THAT'S FREAKING AWESOME !!!!!!!!!!!

kde4.4 IS a change. It's not just a better look-and-feel. I can live without animated windows, but anyone can see that devs are trying to change old concepts here.
Before giving it a chance, I have read a lot of scary critics too. I think it's just that some people still don't understand what it means to choose GNU/linux in fact.
If you choose this way, you EXPECT change. You WANT to learn, and you KNOW that devs are trying to do their best. Some tools will disappear, some ones will get improved. And some not, because "newer" doesn't mean always "better", but always means "we're trying to do better". (If anyone wants an example, I still don't understand what devs are trying to do with GRUB. ).
KDE suggested to me that a desktop is not the same thing as a folder named Desktop. Sounds logical to me, so I just changed the way I think.
And we CANNOT expect change without bugs. There's GNOME, for example. Yes, it seems to work better than KDE. Not so much, as I can see. Also it's so much boring and it lacks functionality. And it's ok, because change implies errors. It's just a choice.
With this lines I try to congratulate KDE designers and developers, because it's a huge amount of work to code a DE. I'm running this on a cheap motherboard with an integrated video card, and it still works like hell...
Sorry for my english is awful, I hope I have explained myself.

PS: Yes, the cube has no defined purpose . But when I'm programming and I get tired of my limited intelligence, I use it to rest my eyes and think about the beauty of the world. That's not a minor purpose, believe me.

beo wrote:You took KDE 3.5 from me, which worked OK!
You FORCED me to use KDE4 .@#$%@#!!! (openSuSE 11.x,...)

that isn't true, opensuse 11.x ships with kde 3.5


but kde4 did create a turning point in kde bashing:

until kde 3.5 kde and its applications sucked because of numerous reasons, and now kde4 sucks and kde 3 was great..

andrei wrote:I just want to say a couple of things.
I'm one of those people who prefere stability over anything else. A week ago I moved from my oh-so-stable Lenny because I was feeling that the world was changing and I was sitted in my old chair a little too long.
So, I perform a minimal Debian installation and then a minimal KDE installation. All seemed to work fine, so I took the next step: OpenGL drivers, plasma and KDE crazy effects enabling.
I would like to express the way I feel about it:

OH MY GOD THAT'S FREAKING AWESOME !!!!!!!!!!!

Glad to hear you feel that way. That's the way I feel about it too

kde4.4 IS a change. It's not just a better look-and-feel. I can live without animated windows, but anyone can see that devs are trying to change old concepts here.
Before giving it a chance, I have read a lot of scary critics too. I think it's just that some people still don't understand what it means to choose GNU/linux in fact.
If you choose this way, you EXPECT change. You WANT to learn, and you KNOW that devs are trying to do their best. Some tools will disappear, some ones will get improved. And some not, because "newer" doesn't mean always "better", but always means "we're trying to do better". (If anyone wants an example, I still don't understand what devs are trying to do with GRUB. ).
KDE suggested to me that a desktop is not the same thing as a folder named Desktop. Sounds logical to me, so I just changed the way I think.
And we CANNOT expect change without bugs. There's GNOME, for example. Yes, it seems to work better than KDE. Not so much, as I can see. Also it's so much boring and it lacks functionality. And it's ok, because change implies errors. It's just a choice.
With this lines I try to congratulate KDE designers and developers, because it's a huge amount of work to code a DE. I'm running this on a cheap motherboard with an integrated video card, and it still works like hell...

Here, here!

A project that doesn't make changes soon becomes stagnant. Sure there are some things that you expect rock-solid stability like the core utilities, standards, etc. - the underlying system. However progression requires trying things that may not work in the hopes of finding something that does.

Sorry for my english is awful, I hope I have explained myself.

Your English is good enough

PS: Yes, the cube has no defined purpose . But when I'm programming and I get tired of my limited intelligence, I use it to rest my eyes and think about the beauty of the world. That's not a minor purpose, believe me.

Eye candy serves the purpose of freeing our minds from the idea that this is just a computer with files and bits and bytes that fly around unnoticed. Instead this is my desktop where I can get things done, where I can be inspired to try new things, to learn, to grow, to make and to do.