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In my kde (4.10.5), toolbars can be put under the menu bar, but they can't be
put on the right of the menu bar. If toolbars could be put on the right of the menu bar, some space would be saved in many apps.

For example, in ksysguard, my bars are in this way:



If the toolbar could be put on the right of the menu bar, the result would be:



So the space used by the menu bar would be saved.

My suggestion is to allow the user to put bars (menu bars and tool bars) in any way the user wants. Specifically, to allow the user to put bars in the same row. In this way, space will be saved in many kde apps.

This way you get some vertical space, but you also get some unused vertical white space, since the text is smaller than the icons. This doesn't looks so nice and isn't very efficient.

A better approach IMHO is to hide the menubar and only show it when needed, you can configure this already:
System settings -> Apllication appearance -> Style - Menubar style: top screen menubar

see also this post: How To Enable Global Menu And Title Bar Button Options In KDE 4.10's KWin

Another approach is also to hide the menubar, but to show the menu in the drop down of a bottom on the toolbar. Dolphin and Rekonq uses this already, see here:


I use both ways and I'm quite happy with it. Hope it helps.

Well, it depends on personal preferences.

Personally I don't like to have the menubar into a button of the toolbar, I prefer to have visible both the menubar and the toolbar, for faster access to the menu items.

I don't like the menubar at the top of the screen, since it doesn't save any space if I run the app maximized. If not maximized, it has the usability problem of having to move your eyes far from the app window. I prefer to have the menubar in the app window.

Since some years ago, I have customized my Firefox for having the bookmarks-bar at the right of the menubar, and the labels removed from the bookmarks-bar, so it only has icons, same as a toolbar. In this way, it saves vertical space (the vertical space of the menubar, since the bookmarks-bar has more height than the menubar), and I can access fast and easily to the menu items and to the bookmarks-bar items. See the image:

Aside a technical detail (the menubar could be added in front of the toolbar, not vv. i've three concerns about this:

1. scale:
for shorter (not maximized...) windows, or many menu entries or ppl. liking many toolbuttons (while i'd question the latter as well =), the horizontal space may quickly become insufficient.
2. scope:
toolbuttons are usually considered to provide access to the most important (used) actions (which can usually also be found in the menus) - putting them on the right (in a ltr culture) contradicts this (esp. since it will be them which fall into a second level GUI, ie. extension arrow, first)
Iff at all, i'd put the menubar on the right (and align it right as well, btw. because of ...)
3. clutter:
mixing text and icons in a row "crowds" the row (looks like random content being stuffed there) - right aligning the menu may relax this (if there's enough space to create a visual gap)

Since the menubar provides hierarchical access only anyway (unlike the direct access of toolbuttons), i'd rather follow the approach of many browsers (inc. FF) or dolphin and turn the menubar into a popup behind a toolbutton (as alternative to placing it into the titlebar or a panel)

Thank you for your concerns

Well, all of this depend on personal preferences. Diferent users may prefer different things. That is why I think we should give flexibility and posibilities, so the user will be able to setup the gui according to his/her preferences.

In other words, your points are good reasons for you to have the gui in a way, and my points are good reasons for me to have the gui in other way. Are you wrong? No, you are not. Am I wrong? No, I am not. All of the ways are correct, all of the points are correct. Just the apps must allow users to setup the gui in their ways.

Well, let me comment your points (having in mind that your way is correct, and my way is correct too):

1. Well, with modern 16:9 screens, horizontal space isn't usually a problem, the problem is usually vertical space. Anyway, if horizontal space is not sufficient to keep both bars (or many bars) in the same row, the user can always drag and drop one of the bars to a new row. Simetrically, if the user sees that a bar has got a lot of wasted space on its rigth side, then he/she can drag and drop the bar to the right (or to the left) of other bar, and the empty row will disappear. The gui will be flexible, the user will be able to setup the gui in the way he/she likes.

2. Ok, no problem. The gui will be flexible, so the user will be able to put bars where he/she prefers. Personally I prefer the toolbar at the right of the menubar, since my mouse pointer is usually placed on the right of the screen, so it reaches things on the right faster. Anyway, the user will have freedom to choose.

3. Ok, the user will be able to put gaps between bars, if he/she wants. For example, Firefox allows to do it (even it has 2 types of gaps: variable width gaps, and fixed width gaps). Another way to separate is by vertical lines (Firefox has got it too). All of these things mean more flexibility to personalice the gui, so... I wellcome this proposal Personally I would use some of those options sometimes (for example, I have some vertical lines in Firefox).

4. Ok, the user will be able to drag and drop a menubar into a toolbar, so the menubar will be converted into a new button of the toolbar. She/he also will be able to drag and drop the menubar to the titlebar, converting the menubar into a titlebar icon. And she/he also will be able to drag and drop the menubar to the main content of the app window, converting the menubar into a panel. All of those options mean more flexibility to the gui, so... they are welcome too. Personally I prefer the clasical menubar, but other users may prefer different thing, so we must give them the possibilities.