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Hi, I have an idea on how to generate a ribbon automatically in all kde applications, without any effort required from developers. Let's start with an image of the proposed ribbon:



As you probably know, the ribbon is combination of the classic menubar & toolbar. The menubar changes the toolbar shown. So the ribbon is like having many toolbars that are tabbed my the menubar.

Ok, let's explain the idea. The main problem in having a ribbon in all applications is that developers would have to modify the applications, so the idea is to avoid it. The ribbon will be generated automatically, without any modification of the applications, and without any recompilation of the applications. Kde will do all of the work. How?

By reusing information. Applications already have menubar and/or toolbar. Those bars have information on items and groups of items. So kde can reuse those items and groups of items. Kde can draw them in a ribbon way. Applications won't know they have a ribbon. Applications will ask kde to draw a menubar & toolbar (same as now), but kde will draw a ribbon.

Let's see an example. This is a tipical kde application, with menubar & toolbar:



If we click on the "File" item of the menubar, then the "File" menu is shown:



We can see that the items of the "File" menu are grouped (separated by lines), so we can redraw them in a ribbon way:



Wow! We have generated automatically a ribbon. The menus of the menubar have been converted into the tabbed toolbars of the ribbon. And what is the star at the left of the "File" tab? It is the star tab, that is generated automatically from elements of the original toolbar:



Wow! So we have reused the information of the original toolbar too. And we have drawn everything in a clear and elegant way, with pure kde flavour.

And no modification nor recompilation of the applications are required. Only a checkbox will be required at kde system setting:

[x] Use ribbon (instead of menubar&toolbar)

In this way, users will be able to choose the classic bars or the ribbon. So users who like classic bars will be happy too.

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Note: As explained in the thread, the automatically generated ribbon is proposed as an option for the user, in applications that have not been modified by developers, so they don't have a manually created ribbon. Keep reading to know more, and join the debate.

Did you mean favorites writting star?

Ribbons are licensed by Microsoft. As far as I know free to use in non-commercial applications except office suites but that might be not correct.

Furthermore, this control is not accepted by everybody. Here are some data from a Libreoffice survey [1].

The clue with real ribbons is a prioritization in terms of bigger and smaller icons with or without text depending on usage, clarity etc.. You don't get this out of the box.

And finally I believe our approach of "simple by default and powerful on demand" reflected in the simple command pattern [2] is outstanding and better than the competitors stuff (if implemented as recommended).

[1] http://user-prompt.com/de/libreoffice-u ... lts-vol-4/
[2] https://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usabi ... _structure

Lachu wrote:
> Did you mean favorites writting star?

Well, you can see the star tab as a favorites tab, since the star tab is automatically generated from the original toolbar, and the original toolbar can be customized by the user, so the start tab can be customized by the user. The application will believe that the user is customizing the toolbar (at Settings > Configure toolbars...), but kde will draw the changes in the star tab.


Heiko Tietze wrote:
> Ribbons are licensed by Microsoft. As far as I know free to use in
> non-commercial applications except office suites but that might be not
> correct.

Well, we are not going to use microsoft's software, and we are not going to use microsoft's ribbon. We are going to use free software and kde ribbon

> Furthermore, this control is not accepted by everybody. Here are some data
> from a Libreoffice survey [1].

Yes, part of people like ribbons and the other part like classic menubar&toolbar. No problem. As I suggested, we just have to put a checkbox at kde system settings to enable/disable ribbons, and we will make everybody happy.

> The clue with real ribbons is a prioritization in terms of bigger and
> smaller icons with or without text depending on usage, clarity etc.. You
> don't get this out of the box.

Bigger and smaller icons can help to find most used items, but at the expense of a more complex interface. I personally prefer homogeneus icon sizes since they are easier to read. Anyway, the develover will be able to code a more specialized ribbon for his/her application if he/she wishes. But the important thing is that we will have an automatically generated ribbon by default, without having to change a bit of code in the application.

> And finally I believe our approach of "simple by default and powerful on
> demand" reflected in the simple command pattern [2] is outstanding and
> better than the competitors stuff (if implemented as recommended).

In the begining I hated the ribbon, probably because I had been using menubar&toolbar for years. But after some time of use, I see the ribbon easier to use than menubar&toolbar. I don't know exactly why, perhaps because of a combination of properties. I think we should give it a try.

I used to hate the Ribbon when starting to use MS Office 2010, but I quickly realized that having menu options arranged horizontally rather than vertically makes them easier to find (which I think is due to the way our eyes are arranged ).

Furthermore, the ribbon is by default visible all the time, with the option to collapse it, if needed, to make use of more screen space. Having it visible all the time has the advantage that you can see the options you are looking for without them being hidden behind a menu which you must first click.

I actually like this idea. The only problem is that the way the auto-generated ribbon looks in the example given here is not 100% optimal. If you look at how the items are arranged in the MS Office ribbon, you will see that they actually arrange items in a very specific way for users to ease interaction and make some items bigger or smaller depending on how frequently they are accessed. They are further categorized and labeled within the ribbon.

I think if one could adopt ribbons as an option, it would be great, but it would require extra effort to arrange the items properly (not just auto-generate them from existing menus).

I think the "star" entry with the default toolbar items is a nice touch as well though.

mydoghasworms wrote:

> I used to hate the Ribbon when starting to use MS Office 2010, but I quickly
> realized that having menu options arranged horizontally rather than
> vertically makes them easier to find (which I think is due to the way our
> eyes are arranged ).
>
> Furthermore, the ribbon is by default visible all the time, with the option
> to collapse it, if needed, to make use of more screen space. Having it
> visible all the time has the advantage that you can see the options you are
> looking for without them being hidden behind a menu which you must first
> click.

Yes, those are probably the main reasons why the ribbon is easier to use than menubar&toolbar.

> I actually like this idea. The only problem is that the way the auto-
> generated ribbon looks in the example given here is not 100% optimal. If you
> look at how the items are arranged in the MS Office ribbon, you will see
> that they actually arrange items in a very specific way for users to ease
> interaction and make some items bigger or smaller depending on how
> frequently they are accessed. They are further categorized and labeled
> within the ribbon.
>
> I think if one could adopt ribbons as an option, it would be great, but it
> would require extra effort to arrange the items properly (not just auto-
> generate them from existing menus).

Well, the ideal solution would be that all application developers would change their applications and manually would create a ribbon specific for each application, with ribbon items arranged and adapted to the application. But this is probably not possible in the sort term, because there are many applications, and some developers won't have the time to change them quickly.

In other words, if kde core developers implement the libraries required to create ribbons, at the beginning only some applications will have ribbon, the rest will still have menubar&toolbar. Solution? The automatic generation of the ribbon. In this way, applications that still have menubar&toolbar will show a ribbon too. The automatically generated ribbon won't be as good as a manually created ribbon, but it probably will be better than menubar&toolbar.

Perhaps some users only want manually created ribbons, and prefer the menubar&toolbar more than the automatically generated ribbon for still-not-modified applications. No problem. This can be customized at kde system settings, for example with the following options:



Users that want manually created ribbons but don't want automatically generated ribbons will check only the first checkbox (use ribbon).

> I think the "star" entry with the default toolbar items is a nice touch as
> well though.

Thank you, I think so.

I have upvoted your idea, but I think you need to update the original idea (is that possible here?) to reflect your last thoughts; i.e. that developers need to specify the layout of the ribbon explicitly, rather than having it auto-generated.

> I have upvoted your idea, but I think you need to update the original idea
> (is that possible here?) to reflect your last thoughts; i.e. that developers
> need to specify the layout of the ribbon explicitly, rather than having it
> auto-generated.

Well, I see it as a recommendation more than as a law. Developers will specify the layout if they want/can. Some of them probably don't like ribbons, so they won't specify the layout. Others won't have the time to change the program, so they won't specify the layout too. Finally, others will feel that the automatically generated ribbon is sufficient, so they won't specify the layout too. In the three cases, the manually created ribbon won't be available, only the automatically generated ribbon will be available for the user (in addition to the menubar&toolbar).

That is the point of an automatically generated ribbon: To fill the gap in applications that don't have a specified ribbon. This was implicit in my original proposal, perhaps I didn't explain it clearly. I have added a note to the original post.