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I noticed as of Plasma 5.8 in OpenSUSE Leap 42.2 that the Desktop behaviour has changed so that "Folder View" is the default Layout and the desktop actually shows files (I like this change and it should be the default in all KDE if it is not already). One problem I notice, however, is that desktop file icons sometimes get hidden behind desktop widgets. It would be good if the desktop files could wrap around the widgets so they don't get hidden behind (or have this as an option).

I vote up!

About showing files on the desktop as a default:

I like this change and it should be the default in all KDE if it is not already

I strongly oppose that!
The desktop can do so much more than just double a location in the file system in a way that creates issues again and again.
Just because many people have learned "that is a desktop" does not mean it is a good idea.
Actually it is a nightmare from an ergonomic point of view, once you really start to think about it.

But about the main point:

if the desktop files could wrap around the widgets

Sure, that obviously makes sense, since a hidden icon is pretty annoying... But this is one of those typical issues I mentioned above. If the icons wrap (actually flow) around widgets, then that means the icons order and layout is changed. That makes finding icons on a desktop littered with many icons even more painful. I often see people looking all over their desktop for some icon they remember they once put there... somewhere... what a sad thing...

arkascha wrote:About showing files on the desktop as a default:

I like this change and it should be the default in all KDE if it is not already

I strongly oppose that!
The desktop can do so much more than just double a location in the file system in a way that creates issues again and again.
Just because many people have learned "that is a desktop" does not mean it is a good idea.
Actually it is a nightmare from an ergonomic point of view, once you really start to think about it.

I don't understand your point -- with the "Folder View" Layout setting you can still add as many widgets you like (including further folder views) so it is just as powerful, if not more so.

Could you elaborate on this "nightmare" because I just don't see it? The Desktop is an excellent and convenient place to put files for frequent access, or for temporary/short-term access before filing away at a later stage. Just because some users are disorganised does not make this a bad paradigm.

The real usability "nightmare" I see is in Plasma where a new user saves a file to ~/Desktop and then looks at the Desktop and the file is not there! Personally, I was not even aware you could change this until OpenSUSE made it the default! In-fact, I don't understand the purpose of the add-widgets-only "Desktop" (sic) view at all -- it seems nothing other than some ideological motive that the user should only add widgets. The desktop may always be implemented as widgets under-the-hood but the user does not have to be made aware of the implementation.

... and why is the add-widget-only "Desktop" layout even called "Desktop" when it isn't even mapped to ~/Desktop?!! Surely what is currently called "Folder View" would be better named "Desktop Folder" and the add-widget-only view called "Widget Dashboard" or something.

I understand the confusion in the naming of the layouts as I've had to confront that a few times. Perhaps it could be alleviated with better terminology.

I think I like the idea to call it "Desktop Folder" when you want the desktop to display the contents of ~/Desktop (using a folder view containment) (or perhaps "Desktop Folder View" to imply that this desktop layout displays a view of the Desktop folder).
I will object to using "Widget Dashboard" since Plasma already has a Dashboard: it is a separate overlay that you can show/hide where you can put more widgets that you don't want on your desktop. I'm not a fan of "Widget Desktop" either as that seems to imply that you can only have widgets on this layout. Perhaps something like "Standard Desktop" or similar so as to convey that this is Plasma's standard, plain-old, vanilla, nothing-fancy (put-your-own-widgets-on-it) desktop.

airdrik wrote:I will object to using "Widget Dashboard" since Plasma already has a Dashboard: it is a separate overlay that you can show/hide where you can put more widgets that you don't want on your desktop.

I used the term because I was aware of the old "Widget Dashboard" and it seemed to describe the behaviour of the widget desktop accurately (by default the Widget Dashboard showed the same widgets as the Desktop anyway). I don't know the situation with the "Widget Dashboard" now because the feature seems to have been removed as I see it on Plasma 5.8. If I go to System Settings->Desktop Behaviour->Workspace on my system all the configuration options for the "Widget Dashboard" have been removed and the old Ctrl-F12 keyboard shortcut now just shows the desktop. If they are planning to bring it back then I obviously would not use this term either.

airdrik wrote:I'm not a fan of "Widget Desktop" either as that seems to imply that you can only have widgets on this layout.

I actually like this suggestion. Is it not indeed the case that you can only add widgets on this layout though? What else can you add other than widgets?

airdrik wrote:Perhaps something like "Standard Desktop" or similar so as to convey that this is Plasma's standard, plain-old, vanilla, nothing-fancy (put-your-own-widgets-on-it) desktop.

Except in the grand scheme of computer desktops there is little "standard" or "vanilla" about the quirky Plasma add-widgets-only desktop. As I posted above, I think there are usability issues with it and think the "Folder View"/Desktop Folder" layout would make a better default.

I'm personally in agreement there as well. I think at the time we made the decision to abandon the icon desktop default, the notion was that we should try to move beyond the skeuomorphic desktop metaphor, out of fear we'd miss the boat on growing into new directions. But at the end of the day we haven't really come up with something better, and the "icon home screen" has shown long legs, with even the newly arisen mobile platforms sticking with it in the interim. Plus yes, we never got rid of some of the seams like the "Desktop" folder in Places that lots of apps assume to be there. I support a FV default.

paulm wrote:

airdrik wrote:I will object to using "Widget Dashboard" since Plasma already has a Dashboard: it is a separate overlay that you can show/hide where you can put more widgets that you don't want on your desktop.

I used the term because I was aware of the old "Widget Dashboard" and it seemed to describe the behaviour of the widget desktop accurately (by default the Widget Dashboard showed the same widgets as the Desktop anyway). I don't know the situation with the "Widget Dashboard" now because the feature seems to have been removed as I see it on Plasma 5.8. If I go to System Settings->Desktop Behaviour->Workspace on my system all the configuration options for the "Widget Dashboard" have been removed and the old Ctrl-F12 keyboard shortcut now just shows the desktop. If they are planning to bring it back then I obviously would not use this term either.

I haven't used 5.x much yet and was unaware of the removal. I will soften my objection.
[qoute="paulm"]

airdrik wrote:I'm not a fan of "Widget Desktop" either as that seems to imply that you can only have widgets on this layout.

I actually like this suggestion. Is it not indeed the case that you can only add widgets on this layout though? What else can you add other than widgets?
[/quote]
What I meant is that "Widget Desktop" implies that only in this layout can you have widgets and not in other layouts (as opposed to: in this layout you can only have widgets, which is how you interpreted it)

airdrik wrote:Perhaps something like "Standard Desktop" or similar so as to convey that this is Plasma's standard, plain-old, vanilla, nothing-fancy (put-your-own-widgets-on-it) desktop.

Except in the grand scheme of computer desktops there is little "standard" or "vanilla" about the quirky Plasma add-widgets-only desktop. As I posted above, I think there are usability issues with it and think the "Folder View"/Desktop Folder" layout would make a better default.

It's the standard (default) in Plasma. It is different from other desktops, but I wouldn't call it quirky just because it doesn't show the contents of ~/Desktop.
At the same time I acknowledge the long-standing general standard of: show the contents of the Desktop folder. Your assessment of usability issues is based on an expectation set by years of that being the standard, not that it is a usability issue in an of itself. If that expectation is removed, it seems a little odd that items dropped in a specially-named folder suddenly appear on top of the wallpaper (perhaps we should change it so that widgets are just special files in ~/Desktop that are then rendered specially by the desktop?). Various desktops, including KDE and Gnome have been pushing to change that for years for various reasons. However, as it turns out, it's hard to change the expectations of the masses.

Ultimately, my personal preference is to leave the default as is to encourage people to make use of the features presented by the Plasma Desktop - add all your own widgets, including folders like ~/Desktop, and organize the desktop the way you want. While at the same time, making it easier/more accessible to enable ~/Desktop folder icons on the desktop because so many people expect that. Ideally just a checkbox of "Show icons in folder (customizable, default: ~/Desktop) on the desktop" in the desktop settings which does whatever necessary to show/hide the icons as requested. The user doesn't need to know that it swaps out the desktop containment from a default containment to a folder view containment, and certainly expecting them to figure out that they need to switch the layout to "Folder View" is unacceptable.

FWIW, we decided at this week's Plasma sprint to change the default to Folder View.

hein wrote:FWIW, we decided at this week's Plasma sprint to change the default to Folder View.

Excellent decision Hein. I notice a great improvement in the default Plasma appearance after returning 2 years later.

This would also be a nice feature as I still notice that I can lose files on the desktop behind any widgets.