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Evengard Registered Member Posts 25 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:22 am Firstly - phonon is based on KDE/Qt, and a lot of people just hates it - so this solution will be really only to KDE users... With Pulse it is not the case Secondly - I think that these forces of creating another sound server will be more helpful to the PulseAudio project itself... Let's do PulseAudio better! Why doing something completely new when we can just make something existant better?... And it will help to develop our world, the progress won't stop
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:05 pm xax200 wrote:I'd be fine with pulseaudio if it wasn't so buggy, was way more user friendly, and could support easily mixing streams from different applications. For example, even after giving PA all of the limits, permissions, and custom configuration (including downloading a jack enabled PA) I could not get it run in RT mode. More reasons why PA is not the solution: It can randomly shut down at any time; It doesn't have an easily configurable Gui that I can see; When it restarts, all of the sound applications lose their connection, freeze up, and wreak havoc. I know that PA is a highly powerful, highly configurable piece of software that many people like, and I thank the devs for that. I just want the common user to be able to use that power without having to go directly into a huge maze of configuration files, PPAs, and headaches. Not to mention wondering what-in-heck-just-happened when all of their audio applications grey out and die. If the Linux world is tired of new sound servers, we have decided to settle for mediocrity. Why should we settle for less than best? We have some of the best minds of our generation working on building software, the power of opensource, and a thriving community. If we stop trying to make better versions of what we have, progress will stagnate and eventually die. I guess that would prove that freedom in software is not feasible. I don't believe that. All the code is already there, it's just not unified. So why wouldn't we want a sound server that can do it all, do it all right, and also be completely accessible to anyone with a Linux machine? I can't think of any major ones. If KDE started developing its own sound system, what makes you think it'll be more robust than PulseAudio while incorporating the same features? Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
xax200 Registered Member Posts 37 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am @Madman KDE code is clean for the most part, having been totally rewrote in version 4.x. Its result was a much more intuitive piece if software with a lot less "hacks" I think the same thing would apply to a new sound server. Basically, write it clean in the first place and the bugs will be minimized. Write it with functions that interface well together with a standard API, and other people who want to write code for it will have a lot less problems with bugs as well. Write it with the purpose of being the end-all solution to sound-serving in Linux, and that's what it will become. Trying to make a program do something it wasn't originally designed to do is a two-steps forward, one back situation.
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:56 pm xax200 wrote:@Madman KDE code is clean for the most part, having been totally rewrote in version 4.x. Its result was a much more intuitive piece if software with a lot less "hacks" I think the same thing would apply to a new sound server. Basically, write it clean in the first place and the bugs will be minimized. Write it with functions that interface well together with a standard API, and other people who want to write code for it will have a lot less problems with bugs as well. Write it with the purpose of being the end-all solution to sound-serving in Linux, and that's what it will become. Trying to make a program do something it wasn't originally designed to do is a two-steps forward, one back situation. You haven't stated anything that would differentiate a new sound server from KDE to PulseAudio. It is no different to how KDE 4.0 was. The difference is, Plasma is sexy, while interfacing with existing sound-systems in a single, standardized method with clean code and a standard API... not so much. Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:56 pm Erm... Plasma is cool*. Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
xax200 Registered Member Posts 37 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:07 pm Heh, that was pretty funny XD. Ok, so it would differ from PulseAudio in a few ways. 1. It would have the ability to patch audio from different applications, no matter what protocol was being used (Jack app to Pulse app, OSS app to Alsa app). 2. It would have a GUI for easily mixing application sounds, loading LADSPA plugins, and patching audio. 3. It would have the option to make a network stream from the GUI, and that would be accessible through the patch tab. 4. Just because, it would have a system wide equalizer loaded automagically, which could then be accessed through the GUI interface. All this in addition to everything PulseAudio can do. I especially like the simplified network streaming interface, because it would be awesome to stream the music playing from Amarok (insert favorite music player here) to all of your mobile devices or send the audio portion of your computer to a friend online. The system wide equalizer has been a wanted feature for quite some time for many. Anything is really possible.
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:16 pm xax200 wrote:Heh, that was pretty funny XD. Ok, so it would differ from PulseAudio in a few ways. 1. It would have the ability to patch audio from different applications, no matter what protocol was being used (Jack app to Pulse app, OSS app to Alsa app). But... PulseAudio already does this. It provides plugs for applications using ALSA or OSS which then go through Pulse, meaning more advanced sound systems like Jack also go straight through Pulse. xax200 wrote: 2. It would have a GUI for easily mixing application sounds, loading LADSPA plugins, and patching audio. Again, this is available through Pulse and, as shown above, nearly complete. xax200 wrote: 3. It would have the option to make a network stream from the GUI, and that would be accessible through the patch tab. PulseAudio... Again... it would be less hassle to just make KDE pulse-aware and provide a GUI for network streaming (lots of Ubuntu users already use this for bluetooth headsets). xax200 wrote: 4. Just because, it would have a system wide equalizer loaded automagically, which could then be accessed through the GUI interface. Again... see above. xax200 wrote:All this in addition to everything PulseAudio can do. Thing is, all you've really described... IS PulseAudio. :/ Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
xax200 Registered Member Posts 37 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:35 pm [/quote] Madman wrote: xax200 wrote:Heh, that was pretty funny XD. Ok, so it would differ from PulseAudio in a few ways. 1. It would have the ability to patch audio from different applications, no matter what protocol was being used (Jack app to Pulse app, OSS app to Alsa app). But... PulseAudio already does this. It provides plugs for applications using ALSA or OSS which then go through Pulse, meaning more advanced sound systems like Jack also go straight through Pulse. Ok, I am very curious how you did this. Jack applications going directly through pulse? Without the Jack server running? If this is possible without a whole lot of bugs, I would appreciate a pointer to the information so I can set this up. Also, you say there is a way you can manually patch sounds to other applications in PulseAudio? In real time? Do tell how. I've been wanting to do that for a long time. I know that pulseaudio can stream to the network, but it is too complicated to set up for many common users.
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:15 pm xax200 wrote:...without a whole lot of bugs... Oh come now, I never said that. See, this is why people say sound on Linux is a mess: actually, yes, you do need the Jack sound server running (it will run whenever you start an application that needs it anyway, so I don't see that as much of a problem), which then accesses Alsa directly to manipulate the hardware. Fortunately, Alsa is already supported by PulseAudio (http://pulseaudio.org/wiki/AboutPulseAudio#Details), so by default, yes, Jack is supported by PulseAudio. And OK, you got me there: I miss-read. I thought you just wanted to control the volume of individual applications e.g. through KMix, which PulseAudio supports. In fact, I don't know what you mean by, "patching" audio. :/ Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
xax200 Registered Member Posts 37 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:26 pm Ah, ok. By patching, I mean the ability to take the output of any program and pipe it directly to another application's input. For example, taking the audio directly from a YouTube video and sending it to a recording program like Audacity or sending the sound from your microphone to a LADSPA plugin or two and then sending it to both sound recording software and to the internet as a stream. That jack solution sounds way too hack-like (which is probably why it has so many bugs :s)
Madman Registered Member Posts 593 Karma 1 OS	Phonon capabilities Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:26 pm Not really: Jack accesses Alsa like any old sound application would. To PulseAudio, the Jack server is an application. And yeah, I see what you mean now. Still, would be much harder to re-write all of PulseAudio under KDE just to include that one feature, especially with PulseAudio's pluggable architecture being an alternative. Madman, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct.
TheBlackCat Registered Member Posts 2945 Karma 8 OS	Phonon capabilities Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:54 am KDE already tried developing its own sound server. It was called arts, and ended up dieing because no one wanted to continue supporting it. After that episode, you are going to have a really hard time convincing anyone to try again, and an even harder time convincing the KDE community to use it. The whole point of Phonon is that it is independent of the underlying sound system. Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor. -NASA in 1965
HalphaZ Registered Member Posts 48 Karma 0	Phonon capabilities Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:51 am I suppose that the problem is primary the fact that isn't simple to understand what PulseAudio, Phonon, Alsa, Jack and other are and what they exactly do. Developers should explain this matter in a well visible document.

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