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[Design Help Wanted, open issue] Krita Icons

User avatar legnaVI
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Ok guys sorry for the little absence, im just struggling through some personal issues but im better now so, lets continue this :)

Here are some thoughts about the tools, maybe some of you wont agree at all, but again those are suggestions that i think they could really improve krita apparence and user experience for new users migrating from other programs 8)

http://i.imgur.com/6d6vcnn.png

And here its the modified image of the UI with the icons suggestions ^-^
Btw as you can se i respected the Oxygen icon design, i just turned it flat and of course blue to match the blue from the theme
(and yeah i was kinda drawing cyan and sabin from FF6, still a wip ;D )

http://i.imgur.com/wQV0yPI.png

( Btw this is my dockers config )

Thanks for the feedback Kubuntiac, its already fixed now :)

Also i did some changes to some icons, for example the rectangle and elipse, they are hollow just to match the polygonal tool, anyways you can choose the fill or not option from the tool panel 8)

Im not deleting options im just trying polish the app by cleaning the clutter and making it simple, elegant but yet powerful.
Again thats just me... 8)

So again, what do you think ?? ^-^
ghevan
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Hey, nice observations I really love the design and the ideas makes sense almost entirely until you need to use some of the tools. I'm no developer but as a user here are my opinions.

Magnifying glass is not really needed as there are many many ways to zoom in/out, but for discoverability it could be there although I'm inclined not to .
Line tool needs to stay. It avoids the guessing work when you need to make a precise linework.

Modifier keys to change from free select/draw to polygonal is a big yes. I ended up using path selector to make my selections more versatile. The problem is, free select activates the moment to raise the stylus tip, and polygonal needs a finishing action ( shift + click, intro, etc) So im not sure how that can be combined.

Grid vs Perspective tool icons. After a second look I see they are easy to distinguish so I would leave them like that.

No pan tool please =(. I understand new users to all programs would want to have a button to make any action, but to be proficient enough you need to learn at least the basics as keyboard shortcuts. For painting one of the basics is navigating. Zoom, Pan, Rotate. If tools could be personalized I would include a "Krita on wheels" Setup that added Zoom, Pan and Rotate as separate tools.

As for the calligraphy and color wheel tools. I can't comment on them, I realized after I commented last time that I don't have those tools at all. So probably that explains why I was so surprised about those tools in particular. There is however a node editor tool that appears only on vector layers after selecting a shape. I allows you to modify the vector shape a little.

About the other problems addressed in the UI
I think that's something we as users and developers in general are hoping to get/do. I like how the polished design looks, and it works because it's familiar.

Overall the proposal it's great I do hope we've got someone to implement them someday. :]


User avatar Animtim
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Very nice icons, I like the style a lot.

Just I disagree on some of your change proposal:

-Really no need for zoom and pan tool. We had but removed those in the past after users agreement. We already have canvas interaction (zoom/pan/rotate) very well integrated globally, no need for additional tools.

-We could merge paint tool with line tool with some new options in its tool docker and/or a modifier, but:
moving it to tool options make it less direct to access (so does not really improve workflow)
moving it to a modifier may be tricky if not impossible, as we already use modifiers for lot of other good things.
Same and even more for other geometric-shape painting tools, as they have tool-specific shortcuts, it would make it more complicated to have it all in one tool.

-Gradient editing and Gradient tool are completly different and unrelated tools:
Gradient Editing is used to edit the gradient on a vector shape, after selecting gradient fill type for a shape style.
Gradient tool is used to apply a gradient on a paint/raster layer.
So it would make it more confusing to try to merge them.
Only theorical improvement would be to make the gradient editing tool appear only when a shape with gradient is selected, but if I remember correctly it used to be modal like this but didn't work so well (didn't always show/hide when it should).


About the "clutter" of layer icons, I think they should stay in similar dimensions because the available space can become much smaller with several nested group layers, so one must remember this when designing new icons for it.

Things I agree:

-Merging Polygon and Polyline drawing tools is a good idea, as they work almost the same way.
Though as they still work a bit differently, we can't just drop one and leave the other, we need an updated or new one with features from both.
(The difference is of course that Polygon allows to draw only closed shapes while Polyline can make open or closed shapes, but closed shapes from polyline tool have start and end point not actually connected. With Polygon, if closing with shift+click, it close without adding another point, while closing clicking on start point makes an overlapping new end point as with polyline, but t his time it really closed/connected to start point).

-Grid tool: this one in current state is not much more useful than the menu options. It would need some additional grid options available in its tool docker. I made a feature request about this, so I'd prefer to see it improved than dropped.

-Perspective tool: this one is now quite obsolete since the perspective ruler has been improved to match its features, so it could possibly be dropped.

And again: very cool icon design work!


User avatar legnaVI
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ghevan

Thanks for your feeback

About the Magnifier, yes its not a like a must for people whos already familiar with zooming using shortcuts but for some people who is exploring digital painting or this kind of programs for the fist time, maybe it will help them out until they read about the shortcuts and get used to them :P

About the free select/polygonal, youre right, ( im still exploring the program im still a heavig PS user :< ) that would be a problem indeed, there haves to be a solution but lets leave it as it is for now

Really?, well because here somebody said before that they look kinda (grid and Perspective) or like not related, so in thought in merging them, also because i haven't come with a different idea for the icon

Im totally agree with you on that about the panning but again thats just me thinking on newbies :D
But sure i dont have use for those actions on icons too , but again is just an idea, also who knows what the devs think about it

Whoow i thought the calligraphy pen was just.... well a calligraphy pen haha i didnt know it was also a vector tool (just like in Inkscape) but anyways i havent used it yet at all too. Yep already checked that about the vector node editor, color wheel tools?? you mean the gradient editor? anyways ive been playing with it and i've come to the conclusion that its totally different to the gradient tool.

Well as i said, they are just ideas and as you can see, not polished enough yet, i still need to keep exploring the program but anyways thank you so much for you feedback

I hopse too, or at least accept mi icons proposal ^-^
User avatar Deevad
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Hey, I appreciate the mockup ( http://i.imgur.com/6d6vcnn.png ) and effort you put to communicate your ideas.
Here is my pov on the ideas ...

Magnifier tool // Panning tool
Yes. I would +1 this idea to have them back. This is a topic coming here very often. So often that it would justify to add it back.
Sure, I'm an advanced user and don't use them ; but I don't want my choice to affect new beginner user.

Various merging of tools
No. This is a paradox with the previous request. Deleting or Merging tool together with more shortcut invocation make the features cryptic.
Also, for paint tool No. I like the original pardygm of Krita to attempt to show 'stroke' and not skeuomorphic tools in the tool bar.

Icon theme
Yes. I agree on most. A lot could be done here. But I'm not personnaly bugged too much by the current appearence of 2.8. I even like it compare to what I knew since 2.2. Feel free to propose/contribute better icons. Making *.svg icons scaling to so few pixel nicely is hard. *.svg are in the Krita source.
in /krita/src/calligra/krita/pics/ and /krita/src/calligra/krita/pics/svg


User avatar Animtim
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About zoom/pan tool, ok if so much people want it, I guess they should be restored. (Maybe we can also have an option for advanced users to hide canvas interaction tools then..)

I completly agree with what deevad said about merging tools, was part of what I try to explain but in simpler words ;)
And I also like "the original pardygm of Krita to attempt to show 'stroke' and not skeuomorphic tools in the tool bar", as it gives a more direct idea of what the tool does.


User avatar EraX
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Don't know if its the right place to discus this... I have planed to create a separate thread about Krita design after finishing my mockups, but since the discussion started in here i'll join in :)
http://artmil.deviantart.com/art/KDE-Krita-437502173
1) Layers - The above mockup has over a 100... well now it may be over 200(lost count) layers with 3/4 level deep nested folders and layer effects(another 100 or 200 items on the layer list in case of krita). Now try to imagine that you have to manage that many layers in krita... without the ability to select multiple layers, the layer viability icons jumping all over the place and filter/transparency masks blending with layer items...
The above mockup shows how i would see the layer docker. A search field for live filtering of the layers moving the layer icons to one place(don't care if its the right, left or as in legnaVI mockup).
Showing the filter/transparency masks in the same line as the layer(with the ability to expand if there are more then one) and some visual separation between the layer items. And of course layer multiselect is a must have ;P

2) Zooming/Navigation - don't really need those icons but for a new user they could be helpful. I would move the zoom slider closer to the image canvas and i think that adding a zoom/pan icons next to it would make more sens than adding them to the "Tools".

2) Dockers - Standard widgets don't work to well in here since the dockers are packed with options/buttons/sliders. Standard widgets are to big and have to big paddings to fit well in that packed space. The same applies to the new layer icons there great but simply to big in my opinion.

3) Gradients - i rarely use twice the same gradient(with few exceptions) so i would be a lot happier if the custom gradient window would get some love and was moved more to the front instead of sh***d predefined gradients...

4) Context menus/toolbars - is it really that hard to make the context menu aware of the tool you choose? What for do i need a color picker(right click) when i have selected the move/crop/transform/etc tool. It would make more sens to show a context menu appropriate to the selected tool. The same could apply to the top toolbar... in stead of showing the same icons, update the toolbar with the most used options of the selected tool and the rest move to the tools option docker.

5) New filter window - It jumps all over the place like a drunken hippie on a disco party, why not taming it a little bit by adding vertical scrollbars(when needed) on the right option list.
User avatar jensreuterberg
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Well not to get this bogged down into an issue of strange academics - but the idea of the "stroke" is not very precise or exact. An icon is a symbol for an action, as such it needs to either lend itself "meaning" from a good representation of the action intended OR from a commonly accepted symbol for the action intended.

It's the "save icon" issue essentially. A classic question I get when showing Krita to other illustrators is "Where is the brush"? Until they can scroll over over the tools and get the pop-up saying "brush" that is. One even refers to it as "the squiggly line" (but in Swedish).
The tricky bit here is that both you two (Deevad and Animtim) as well as me are USED to the squiggly line indicating "brush" that the symbol now has meaning to us. We have learned that that is what it means. It's like the "zoom tool" exploring krita means having to figure out the icons and the squiggly line isn't very exact to most. But lets delve further: we can see the same issue in the brush-selection. Instead of just a practical example of how the brush looks we have opted for an image of the real life brush. This because the brush line can never exactly define the effect, so instead we use a similar real life brush image to define what the user can expect when seeing it.

Now we can't avoid all these issues, some icons you have to "learn" but I want to actually strike a blow for the image-style icon instead of the squiggly line (skeumorphic is a complex and often pejorative term to use in these situations so I try to avoid it at all costs).

The second issue I have with the squiggly line is that I want to see how well it goes with legnaVI's icon theme and if it's possible to pull off first. If not, then I would definitely suggest against it. The icons proposed by legnaVI are too me light years ahead of the current ones. Not only as an aesthetic choice but when it comes to visibility and legibility as well. This is not a slight towards the current ones, that wen't well with the oxygen icon theme but since that is to be phased out (not removed just not made standard) this might be a good move to create a standard as well.

Personally I think it would be clever to merge them into the Awesome Icon Theme so they can be shared between as many graphical applications as possible.


KDE Visual Design Group - "Sexy by default - Powerful through cooperation"
User avatar Deevad
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jensreuterberg wrote:"Where is the brush" [...] "the squiggly line" [...]

Ok for your point Jens. So, yes, I'll tend to agree this now too. In fact, I'm more bugged about the deep aspect of some feature ( ex : line smoothing setting being not saved by preset ) than aesthetical. If it can help a wide range of new user, I'm ready to open my mind to it . It wont change that much my life.

jensreuterberg wrote: skeumorphic is a complex and often pejorative term to use in these situations so I try to avoid it at all costs.

Sorry, I've sinned for the pleasure to write this delicious word 'skeumorphic' and make me appear way more intelligent than I'm actually be.
it's about flat and symbolic icons anyway. So, I'll change my mind. Fill bucket, Color Picker are already around ... why not a brush ?

jensreuterberg wrote: The icons proposed by legnaVI are too me light years ahead of the current ones.

They indeed looks good.

EraX wrote:http://artmil.deviantart.com/art/KDE-Krita-437502173

Not enough compact for my taste. The theme is also on the way. And feels not adapted for professional 2d painting workflow.
It looks like a mockup for the Pinta audience. ( easy Painting/2Dmanip audience )


User avatar EraX
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~90% is based on the default krita layout... biggest changes are made in the layer docker and the top of the window.
User avatar legnaVI
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Deevad wrote:Hey, I appreciate the mockup ( http://i.imgur.com/6d6vcnn.png ) and effort you put to communicate your ideas.
Here is my pov on the ideas ...

Magnifier tool // Panning tool
Yes. I would +1 this idea to have them back. This is a topic coming here very often. So often that it would justify to add it back.
Sure, I'm an advanced user and don't use them ; but I don't want my choice to affect new beginner user.

Various merging of tools
No. This is a paradox with the previous request. Deleting or Merging tool together with more shortcut invocation make the features cryptic.
Also, for paint tool No. I like the original pardygm of Krita to attempt to show 'stroke' and not skeuomorphic tools in the tool bar.

Icon theme
Yes. I agree on most. A lot could be done here. But I'm not personnaly bugged too much by the current appearence of 2.8. I even like it compare to what I knew since 2.2. Feel free to propose/contribute better icons. Making *.svg icons scaling to so few pixel nicely is hard. *.svg are in the Krita source.
in /krita/src/calligra/krita/pics/ and /krita/src/calligra/krita/pics/svg



Wow suddenly an explosion of opinions!

Well to be honest it doesnt bother me having the zoom and panning tools at all too, cuz im already used to shortcuts, but as Deevad said, for some of us are unnecessary now because of our experience, but for users coming from other programs i think that would help them to feel like familiarized with the UI and tools

About the merging tools, im still kind of new to Krita so i dont know how exactly some of the tools work yet thats why my ignorant ideas :P but yes, merging will cause, maybe frustation for new users like me when i started using blender wich is a heavy shortcut program. But about the stroke tool i really not agree with the design it doesnt look like drawing tool at all, i had a hard time searching for a brush to start painting so maybe a squishy brush and a straight brush will do the trick

As graphic designer, they lack symbolism and clear design, of course if youre already familiarized you will already know what their the function is but for new users maybe that wont be the case, and also they feel kind of heterogeneous, like the style is not related to each other between the icons, it really makes the Ui feels clunky and unprofessional

but again thats just my opinion and i really want to help to at least polish the Krita look for the masses .
so im totally down on working and providing you the icons in every format you want, just said the word :)
User avatar Deevad
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legnaVI wrote: [...] providing you the icons in every format you want, just said the word :)

Oh, thanks for the effort! it's a big task. Let me helps with the infos :
  1. Tools picture can be found in calligra/krita/plugins/tools/(then subfolder per tools ) ( 22x22 pixel , PNG , alpha background, b&w )
  2. Naming and path for them can be found here online ( check subfolder ).
  3. Best practise : providing a *.SVG vector file, Inkscape ( to ease re-export to larger size , retina-like )
  4. Icons needs to be tested over bright or dark background
  5. They also needs to not mimic Ps ones, I'd like Krita to keep it's own charm.

ghevan wrote:I made an image to simplify my biggest annotations.
http://colorathis.files.wordpress.com/2 ... con-cc.png

+1 , I like Ghevan propositions.


User avatar legnaVI
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Deevad wrote:
legnaVI wrote: [...] providing you the icons in every format you want, just said the word :)

Oh, thanks for the effort! it's a big task. Let me helps with the infos :
  1. Tools picture can be found in calligra/krita/plugins/tools/(then subfolder per tools ) ( 22x22 pixel , PNG , alpha background, b&w )
  2. Naming and path for them can be found here online ( check subfolder ).
  3. Best practise : providing a *.SVG vector file, Inkscape ( to ease re-export to larger size , retina-like )
  4. Icons needs to be tested over bright or dark background
  5. They also needs to not mimic Ps ones, I'd like Krita to keep it's own charm.

ghevan wrote:I made an image to simplify my biggest annotations.
http://colorathis.files.wordpress.com/2 ... con-cc.png

+1 , I like Ghevan propositions.


Well, yeah actually PS its my inspiration, but again that doesnt mean im trying mimic it
im just trying to create a similar clean and well integrated style for krita ;)

Anyways thanks for the info Dave ! im on it :)
User avatar EraX
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Mimicking something that works good and is well thought isn't bad... Trying to be different without any good reason(just to be different) in many cases crippling the experience is bad.
slangkamp
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I'm currently working on integrating this into Krita. Can you make the icon files available?

 
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