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Offline updates

krzmbrzl
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Offline updates

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:24 am
You have recently introduced offline updates and in your blog post you asked for opinions on this to be shared here. So that's what I'll do.

Personally I have to say that I consider offline updates a step backwards. I always though that it is a great advantage of Linux systems that they can update without requiring a reboot.

Now I do understand that updating on a running system can cause issues and therefore I think having the ability to use offline updates instead is great. Maybe this should even be the default, but I really wished I could opt-out of this and thereby going back to the old update mechanism.
(I know I can update via the terminal in order to get back to the old behavior, but imo this should be an option in Discover)
User avatar claydoh
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:07 am
Are these for all updates coming from Neon repos, or just the ones that need this? Plasma upgrades make sense, for sure.

Curiously, my two systems rebooted twice in the process.

I like the concept, personally, I can and do use the terminal, but having this somehow optional would be great, as I do so much love not being able to log off or restart from the desktop with every other Plasma related update. I already miss this option :D


claydoh, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct, and KDE user since 2001
Popanz
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:00 am
Really, this feels like windows! :( Especially, because there was not only one reboot but two.
So for me this feels absolutely ungood. The update behaviour of windows was one part that brought me to linux over 15 years ago. Now I have bad feelings, that this behaviour will come to my most loved Desktop. While on my main machine this is more a minor annoyance, i have still some older machines without a SSD so they need quite long to start up. These Offline Updates force me to wait more than 5 Minutes for the updates to finish. Please rethink this decission. In 15 Years I only once managed to brick a machine with an Online Update....
User avatar apachelogger
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:33 am
Code: Select all
kwriteconfig5 --file discoverrc --group Software --key UseOfflineUpdates --type bool false


I'm being told discover might grow a gui option for this somewhere since you asked for it.


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vylu
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:42 am
What I hate about windows, that when you want to turn on computer at the airport and want to quickly send an email, you suddenly realize you have to wait until it installs and configures updates. I feel same with recent offline updates in plasma desktop, although it is much faster :) It is useful feature for kernel updates, etc, but most of the time it is enough just to logoff/logon at most, without doing full system reset (two resets actually).

Although I see it is a good feature for most of non-power users, but many others would prefer to restart application what needs to be restarted, instead of rebooting whole pc. Hopefully option to disable this feature is added soon to the GUI.
Popanz
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:25 pm
apachelogger wrote:
Code: Select all
kwriteconfig5 --file discoverrc --group Software --key UseOfflineUpdates --type bool false


I'm being told discover might grow a gui option for this somewhere since you asked for it.


Thanx! Having an option was always the KDE way! ;D
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:39 pm
apachelogger wrote:
Code: Select all
kwriteconfig5 --file discoverrc --group Software --key UseOfflineUpdates --type bool false


I'm being told discover might grow a gui option for this somewhere since you asked for it.


Are all updates installed via Discover to be offline, or just the ones that benefit from it? It seems a bit overboard to have offline updates for normal application software.


claydoh, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct, and KDE user since 2001
User avatar apachelogger
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:22 pm
Every application that is part of the system (i.e. installed as a deb) is a system update.

If you update konsole and it changes the ABI of the konsole kpart that breaks dolphin's embedded terminal. "application" doesn't really mean anything from a programming perspective.


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User avatar claydoh
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm
So *all* updates will be offline then, including ones that do not really require it, such as a video editor, office suite, or web browser?


claydoh, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct, and KDE user since 2001
User avatar apachelogger
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:03 pm
claydoh wrote:So *all* updates will be offline then,

No. Non-system software does not. Namely: third party extensions from the KDE store (icon packs, themes and the like), snaps, flatpaks, and appimages.

claydoh wrote: including ones that do not really require it such as a video editor, office suite, or web browser?

There is no such thing as a piece of system software that doesn't require it. You would think a video editor exists in an isolated bubble but it does not when it is installed as system software. e.g. kdenlive: kdenlive is a video editor, kdenlive uses kio for file io, kio is using plugins to implement that, any 2 of the 3 can break their runtime compatibility necessitating a software restart. When it's installed as a flatpak or snap it becomes an entirely different story though.


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User avatar claydoh
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Re: Offline updates

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:00 pm
I get that, but having to reboot to upgrade to a new version of, say, Libreoffice or something similar is a bit overkill.
There will be much howling, to be sure.
I like and heartily approve of the concept and process, just not the all-or-nothing aspects of it.


claydoh, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct, and KDE user since 2001
pandiloko
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Re: Offline updates

Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:44 am
apachelogger wrote:
Code: Select all
kwriteconfig5 --file discoverrc --group Software --key UseOfflineUpdates --type bool false


I'm being told discover might grow a gui option for this somewhere since you asked for it.


Thanks for this, but I think it should be obvious that many users will have a problem with restarting with every freaking update. I mean, this has been always a selling point for Linux, isn't it? Instead of fixing the problems of online updates by restarting services or whatever is necessary, KDE takes the windows way of solving everything by restarting.

Honestly I only had problem with updates in the past (5+ years using Kubuntu/KDE Neon) with KDE and KDE-related packages (Dolphin, Konsole, Klipper, etc). I've never experience any issues with non-KDE related programs. At least nothing major that could justify this annoyance.

And anyway, wouldn't X Session restart (logoff, logon) be enough in most cases?
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Re: Offline updates

Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:14 pm
claydoh wrote:I get that, but having to reboot to upgrade to a new version of, say, Libreoffice or something similar is a bit overkill.
There will be much howling, to be sure.
I like and heartily approve of the concept and process, just not the all-or-nothing aspects of it.

Since switching to Bitwarden from LastPass I have to do 3 separate logins to BW with each reboot; 1 for cli, 1 for BW in Chrome (Beta), and 1 for a ChromeBeta tab. On top of that KDE Neon takes about 3-4 minutes to reboot these days. New Discovery update seems to require a restart each time. To avoid that I just run my old script, updt.sh from Konsole:
Code: Select all
#!/bin/bash
# Does the same thing as update manager
# Updated 2021-04-09 @ 13:02:37 MDT by [email protected] apt-get to apt, changed upgrade to full-upgrade
sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade && sudo apt dist-upgrade


2 steps forward and 3 steps back. Good to have choices. o)


Migrated from Linux Mint 17.3/18.3 KDE to KDE neon User Edition. Now 5.21.
User avatar claydoh
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Re: Offline updates

Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:38 pm
blue_bullet wrote:
claydoh wrote:I get that, but having to reboot to upgrade to a new version of, say, Libreoffice or something similar is a bit overkill.
There will be much howling, to be sure.
I like and heartily approve of the concept and process, just not the all-or-nothing aspects of it.

Since switching to Bitwarden from LastPass I have to do 3 separate logins to BW with each reboot; 1 for cli, 1 for BW in Chrome (Beta), and 1 for a ChromeBeta tab. On top of that KDE Neon takes about 3-4 minutes to reboot these days. New Discovery update seems to require a restart each time. To avoid that I just run my old script, updt.sh from Konsole:
Code: Select all
#!/bin/bash
# Does the same thing as update manager
# Updated 2021-04-09 @ 13:02:37 MDT by [email protected] apt-get to apt, changed upgrade to full-upgrade
sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade && sudo apt dist-upgrade


2 steps forward and 3 steps back. Good to have choices. o)


Yup, as mentioned in info from my links, offline updates are only relevant for Discover, or pkcon if using specific options. Normal command line updating is not effected.


claydoh, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Oct, and KDE user since 2001
milikitato
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Re: Offline updates

Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:44 am
Hi,

personally I though that something was broken or a rootkit type of virus got it. I was reconsidering reinstalling the o.s. and creating a support ticket/post for help thing.

I even though that maybe kde neon or the dev team got "bought"/forked/etc by some microsoft team/philosophy. It just got me a really bad feeling of things going downhill.

I agree with many of the above post, this looks/feels too much like windows and seems old and antiquated way of doing things in 2021.
I though that linux didn't "need" update reboots. Nightmares coming to mind from my windows tek support days in the 1990s

 
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