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[Dolphin] Drag & Drop should work like elsewhere

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User avatar daedaluz
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NOW:
User coming from Windows or any other system in existence will be confused when drag&drop operations in Dolphin produce a small pop-up asking what user wants to do.

WHY IT'S BAD:
User who wants to drag&drop without holding modifier key excepts files to move if on same disk or be copied when moving to another disk, network location or external medium. User might stumble around settings for a while, but there is no way to disable this behavior.

HOW TO FIX IT:
Use the same practice as in elsewhere:
- drag&drop without modifier key moves on same /dev location, copies to other /dev's
- drag&drop with ctrl as modifier key copies files always
- drag&drop with shift creates link to file in destined location
- drag&drop with alt presents user with the current dialogue offering alternatives

Offer option in Dolphin to make the alt option default on all operations to keep KDE oldtimers happy.

POSITIVE RESULTS:
New users have easier time to adapt into KDE. Easier transition between different systems. Less clumsy drag&drop with one click less in pretty much 99% of time. Less incentive for user to rely on keyboard copy, cut and paste shortcuts to avoid RSI.

WHEN:
Lauch of FW5 would be ideal time to implement these changes.
Wolfgange
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I think this would be beneficial, but with the following changes:
1. Dragging with no modifier moves the file
2. Dragging with no modifier to the desktop still creates the context menu since often one might want to link a file to their desktop.
luebking
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a) changing the loooooooong time KDE default behavior will really **** present users who rely on that popup showing up.
b) "linking" on windows has neither the same meaning nor relevance like on posix systems
c) i frankly do not see where hiding the existing shortcuts behind a popup where you got to press a secret shortcut (alt) to show it would be an improvement.

The way it is now, users are presented with the popup that trains them into the available shortcuts - or allows them to choose time by time for the casual user.

"Please behave as I was conditioned by MS in the past" may be a valid request - but only for the users that have been conditioned by MS so far (who told you about it - or how did you figure it otherwise?)
For everyone else, it rather seems a regression to me.
User avatar daedaluz
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luebking wrote:a) changing the loooooooong time KDE default behavior will really **** present users who rely on that popup showing up.

Which is why there would be an option to use the option used by 0.5% of desktop computer users (KDE diehards). Do note that behavior is not Windows-only. It's every single other system except KDE.

b) "linking" on windows has neither the same meaning nor relevance like on posix systems

That is completely irrelevant. Do note that behavior is not Windows-only. It's every single other system except KDE.

c) i frankly do not see where hiding the existing shortcuts behind a popup where you got to press a secret shortcut (alt) to show it would be an improvement.

See the reasons I outlined in the opening.

The way it is now, users are presented with the popup that trains them into the available shortcuts - or allows them to choose time by time for the casual user.

And there is no way to get rid of it once user is "trained".

"Please behave as I was conditioned by MS in the past" may be a valid request - but only for the users that have been conditioned by MS so far (who told you about it - or how did you figure it otherwise?)

Don't forget that Microsoft still has some 90% of marketshare globally. And it's not just Windows. It's every single other system except KDE.

For everyone else, it rather seems a regression to me.

I've been super comfy with GNOME to the point where using Dolphin instead of Nautilus is painful and this idiotic little popup is main reason. There, I made your claim about "everyone" invalid.
luebking
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iow. *you* want to make kde act like *your* familiar gnome setup by default.

And there is no way to get rid of it once user is "trained".

I did not say it should be enforced.
I keep saying that reproducing windows defects would be smart is wrong.

I'd instead propose to offer "don't show this menu again" as checkable item in the menu, open a dialog in return, telling the user what behavior will now be applied and how they can get back the menu (pressing alt)

Now on why i believe the secret DnD behavior is stupid:
-----------------------
The majority of windows users does not even know that they can control the DnD behavor and they don't want to.
They copy, wait until the copy process finished and then move the file into the tashcan.
Or they use the rightclick menu to copy / paste.
Or they walk the menubar edit/copy/paste path.

The feature is basically hidden to them since it was never introduced to them.

Now again: How did you get aware of the DnD shortcuts on "every other system" (being windows and gnome in your case, i take)
If you don't know from KDE or some advanced Windows filemanager, somebody once told you and you were like "oh, cool - i had no idea!"
I know that because i've heard it a lot.
User avatar daedaluz
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luebking wrote:iow. *you* want to make kde act like *your* familiar gnome setup by default.

Next time you attempt to take this on personal level I stop replying. Please try to see the bigger picture here: 99.5% of desktop users are not familiar with what KDE does. I assume 0.5% of desktop users use KDE based on data giving Linux systems 2% marketshare and in those Linux systems GNOME and its derivatives Unity, Cinnamon, Mate, LXDE and XFCE dominate KDE. In addition lesser window managers like Rox, Window Maker, Enlightement... every single one except KDE. At that point it is rather irrelevant wether KDE approach is superior or not. Maybe once KDE actually becomes widespread, then maybe try to change how people do things. But it will never become widespread if it is alien on core usability level to rest of the world (see also my another proposition regarding Plasma shortcuts).

I'd instead propose to offer "don't show this menu again" as checkable item in the menu, open a dialog in return, telling the user what behavior will now be applied and how they can get back the menu (pressing alt)

That sounds good too. I'd actually be against showing that checkbox in that menu. What if you are correct and everyone loves that popup? What if all those millions poured in usability research produced wrong results? Could be. Then they'd have one irritating menu option to dodge every time that will never go away.

Now on why i believe the secret DnD behavior is stupid:
-----------------------
The majority of windows users does not even know that they can control the DnD behavor and they don't want to.
They copy, wait until the copy process finished and then move the file into the tashcan.
Or they use the rightclick menu to copy / paste.
Or they walk the menubar edit/copy/paste path.

How do you know that underlined part? That is crucial to validity of rest of your argument.

Now again: How did you get aware of the DnD shortcuts on "every other system" (being windows and gnome in your case, i take)
If you don't know from KDE or some advanced Windows filemanager, somebody once told you and you were like "oh, cool - i had no idea!"
I know that because i've heard it a lot.

Dunno. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That is similar question to any other often used hidden feature which exists in pretty much every system. Like alt+f2 for run command dialog or alt+f10 for window menu.
luebking
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I'm not attacking you - neither on personal nor any other level. (Be assured that you'd notice otherwise)
I'm merely stating the fact that you demand that the system should align to your pre-conditioned habits by default. And implied that you simply ignore unconditioned users.

But it will never become widespread

Please grow up. Things are widespread, because they're pre-installed.
Plus, if what you say is true, gnu/linux should better kick POSIX approaches and use COM. .NET and WPF - it's more widespread (well, on desktops) ;-P
And there should be a registry.

and everyone loves that popup?

Nobody stated that. Please stop insinuating nonsense - it's not getting you anywhere.

The challenge here is simple:
---------------------------
* There's a feature.
** Either this feature is useless
*** Then it should be dropped.
** Otherwise the users need to get aware of it (or it's useless because unused)
*** A secret shortcut that you "somehow" learn about (or not) is obviously no approach to get ppl. aware of anything.
*** So you need to tell the user - "by default".
*** In addition, KDE long time showed a certain behavior, altering that out of the void may cause unpredicted action (removing the popup unconditionally is not bad because users "love" it, but because they rely on it showing up instead of a copy/move/link action being triggered immediately)
**** Telling him what he knows is pointless, so you can offer to stop telling, opting in for shortcuts.
***** Simple rule: keep config options in context, a checkbox in a tab in a settings module will *never* get any normal user aware of the ability to change things (there was just a bug report the other day that showed that a user wasn't even aware that he could change the colors of applications)

-> Where does that get you?

How do you know that underlined part?

I know that because i see them doing what i described as well - and then tell them that they can do much more efficiently.
I also see ppl. DnD files one-by-one (copy one file, wait, copy the next, wait ...)

Like alt+f2 for run command dialog or alt+f10 for window menu.

Defending defects with the existence of more defects is hardly reasonable.
If you ask "what does windows/gnome" or "what fits the pattern of insufficiencies" instead of "how can it be done better", i could only tell you to just use windows/gnome, if that is what you want (and what your footer actually says, btw.)
Lachu
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In my opinion current solution is the best.


Lachu, proud to be a member of KDE forums since 2008-Nov.
User avatar daedaluz
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luebking wrote:Please grow up.

That's it. Was nice talking.

Lachu wrote:In my opinion current solution is the best.

Care to explain why?
metzman
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Been around a long time, I was a late adopter of any GUI, command line 'just worked'. (Hands up those who remember 'PIP destination source', and I'm talking DEC PDPs, later adopted by CP/M of course.)

Then I (foolishly) used XP, I dragged and dropped...

Moved to linux (wise choice), used Gnome (didn't like it), I dragged and dropped...

Tried KDE, (liked it, still use it), I dragged and dropped...

I don't really see what it is that potentially 'confuses' you, or all these other OS users, in adapting to something so trivial.

If you want 'confusuion', how about the x windows behaviour of 'copy-on-select', 'paste-on-middle-click'....

You do have some support though...
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=287762
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154804

Personally, I'm quite ambivalent on this one. I'll still be able to drag and drop just as easily... ;)
luebking
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daedaluz wrote:
luebking wrote:Please grow up.

That's it. Was nice talking.


Running away from discussion by pretending to be offended by a catchword that obviously translates "fact check:" in the very context (things don't get widespread because they mimic other things), that you of course stripped from the quote, just proves that you've no arguments left on topic. Fine. But please don't take my words out of context to insinuate things I did not say.
User avatar google01103
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Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:35 pm
To all those involved in this "discussion" please review both this Forum's Policy (see link on top of page) and The KDE Code of Conduct (link provided from the Policy page) and adhere to to them especially:
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User avatar daedaluz
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Okay, let's recap main arguments from both sides!

PRO
* 99.5% of existing computer users are already used to proposed change
* reduces number of mouse clicks required
* less need for keyboard

CONTRA
* 0.5% of existing computer users might be startled by change
* users who do not care about more advanced file managing need to be educated anyways

Design for rest of the world and normal users. Design for existing tiny fraction of users and computer illiterates. It appears that is the choice that we are making in a nutshell.
User avatar Heiko Tietze
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Don't forget that your 0.5% are 100% for KDE. So I would go for "Offer option in Dolphin to substitute file operation choice per menu by hotkey modifiers." Instead of your:
daedaluz wrote:Offer option in Dolphin to make the alt option default on all operations to keep KDE oldtimers happy.

That's how it works right now, as far as I know. Actually I cannot remember which hotkey to use for what operation. :<
Last but not least you have a lot of alternatives for file management, like Krusader.
metzman
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As was pointed out here https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154804#c18 by one of Dolphin's developers, Dolphin itself won't be changed to accommodate the action you desire.

Also, as pointed out in the same thread, discussion on this issue would be better directed at the KDE Usability Project.

Why not subscribe to their mailing list and put forward your proposals there?

https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability

 
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