Will probably start a bit of a flame war, but I'm a little bothered by the 'perpetually incomplete' status of some of the core desktop functions. Wonder what is taking so long to get these applications developed and ready?

Three notable applications for core system usability are a printer configuration/management tool, a total networking configuration and management tool, and a complete packaging tool like kpackage used to be.

In using my computer I want to be able to print documentation without having to go to gnome app, command line, or cups config. Not a lot to ask, really. This should have been available in 4.01 in my opinion.

Regarding printing, here is the feature plan for the 4.3 series:

TODO KDEPrint If no file printing support in Qt4.5, migrate FilePrinter class from Okular to enable file printing for all apps via QPrinter. To be discussed on k-c-d first. John Layt
TODO KDEPrint Add framework for standard actions for 'Send to...' for e-mail, fax, etc by printing to PDF/PS. John Layt
TODO printer-applet Restore feature parity with KDEPrint3 where possible. John Layt
TODO system-config-printer-kde Restore feature parity with KDEPrint3 where possible. john Layt, Jonathan Riddell

So wonder what the issue is? If John Layt surfs this forum I'm sure there are many others who would appreciate being enlightened...


I want to be able to setup and configure my ethernet and/or wireless connection via a networking tool -as a regular user (with administrative password). This should have been available in 4.2 at the latest! 4.2 was the "it'll all be better (ready) by then" promise date.

Regarding networking, here is the feature plan for the 4.3 series:

IN PROGRESS Plasma Network Manager Applet Will Stephenson

Not much info here, especially since this is probably one of the most requested features! If Will Stephenson surfs this forum I'm sure there are many others besides myself who would appreciate knowing what is holding up the development and implementation of this much needed app.


I want to be able to remove and install packages much like I did with kpackage without going command line or using a gnome app. I want my little cpu to be all kde? kpackage should have been ported until there was a usefull alternative. kpackagekit is still alpha software.

Regarding kpackagekit, here is the feature plan for the 4.3 series:

IN PROGRESS KPackageKit Pushing in KPackageKit (dependant on PolicyKit integration) Daniel

but on the same feature list policykit show the following info:
DONE PolicyKit integration Import PolicyKit-KDE from extragear Dario Freddi

So what is going on with kde? I feel like a kid with a shiny new car which included no a/c system and only an am radio!

The standard reply is "if you don't like the rate of progress quit complaining and pitch in and help." Please don't flame with that response. That is NOT the spirit in which this post is submitted. Rather, if those developers responsible for these apps would visit the forum and lay out the problems in getting these apps ready maybe me and plenty more people could help them with it...

I do have the feeling that KDE4 is in a perpetual unfinished state. I think it has become a playground for some developers to mess about with, rather than the solid stable and complete desktop it used to be. Some things crash on me all the time, elsewhere I have to use a GTK equivalent to get work done, file association weirdness, poor performance with default Oxygen style, quirks in compositing, poor support for non-Linux platforms, **** poor documentation, etc, etc. I have tried to help in various ways, with coding, patching, and testing, but most of my bugs have been closed as invalid, and many fixes have been rejected as not following someone's grand vision. It's very depressing. I've given up and am focusing my energies elsewhere.

But regards to your list: There is a printer config applet now. But network manager always seems to be a never reached promise. I ended up using wicd. The network manager was never a part of official KDE though. KPackage ended up being a black sheep. It could never work as well as the distro's own package manager, and there were several package formats that it never implemented (or did implement, but poorly).

90% of the time, the reason is "the developers can't find the time to work on KDE" - most of the developers have day jobs, spouses, children etc that gobble up all of their time and energy. For example: John has make about 25 commits to KDE over the last year, with the last being several months ago. A full-time paid developer, however - Aaron, say - will quite often knock out that many in a few days.

Believe me, I understand about the pulls of time commitment to work and family. That is completely understandable and since KDE development is an unpaid labor of love it has to be fit in to one's time schedule when they can find the free time.

That being said, the fault really is upon the lead developers. If John Layt, who I'm sure is a perfectly nice gentleman and competent programmer, can only find the time to make infrequent commits then he probably should not be the lead developer on the project. The fault is not upon Mr. layt for being willing to give of his free time, but the fault lies with the lead developer for the core package. If kdeprint is a core system function of the kdeutils metapackage then the lead developer over kdeutils should have been actively recruiting someone to step up and take over the reins of leadership. The role of the metapackage leader should not be as a coder, but as a facilitator. The kdeutils development team (http://utils.kde.org/) lists no lead developer, but the do have a webmaster, kossebau@kde.org , Perhaps he is the lead...?

Anyway, the point is that KDE needs to have a better hierarchical structure of development accountability. This is one of the reasons the 4.0 release was such a disaster. If a team of accountable lead developers had been watching the development progression there is just no way that 4.0 would have been released in it's release state. If nothing else, a competent lead developer would have inserted a pop-up window at boot time stating that the desktop product the end user was using was intended for developers only and should not be considered a release product. I really like the direction of the kde4 desktop. I was an early adopter and proponent of the goals. I too agree with BrandyBuck's assertion that kde4 has become a playground of sorts for developers to mess with.

Please, developers, and kde coordinators, put together a tighter quality control team to facilitate development of core system apps!

Brandybuck wrote:

But regards to your list: There is a printer config applet now. But network manager always seems to be a never reached promise.

running 4.3 and I'm not seeing a printer config applet, is it in trunk?

mshelby wrote:time to make infrequent commits then he probably should not be the lead developer on the project. The fault is not upon Mr. layt for being willing to give of

You misunderstand. He is the only one (along with some relevant contributions by Alex Merry) who stepped up to work on printing in the 4.0 days. That's because no one was actually working (because the main KPrinter developer had no time, and others had trouble with its code complexity) on printing.
A lot of the delays had been with some personal issues he had (read his blog). This only means that more people are needed on printing, which is unfortunately a rather complex beast, and very hard to tame as well.

The printing applet and configuration program (system-config-printer-kde) instead was started by Jonathan Riddell, a key Kubuntu developer.

Anyway, the point is that KDE needs to have a better hierarchical structure of development accountability. This is one of the reasons the 4.0 release was such a disaster.

You simply can't do that with a good part of the developers being volounteers.

Please, developers, and kde coordinators, put together a tighter quality control team to facilitate development of core system apps!

There is such a team: it's called Bugsquad, and everyone can participate when they hold bug days. Oh, and new members are welcome too.

I probably shouldn't be sticking my head in here but I would just like to point out this nice little paragraph that is at the top of every single source file within KDE as well as what is distributed with the compiled versions:

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
GNU General Public License for more details.

I don't read anywhere that it is a complete project. Linux on the desktop is a developer's playground; if you are expecting anything more than that you will be disappointed.

Zarin wrote:I don't read anywhere that it is a complete project. Linux on the desktop is a developer's playground; if you are expecting anything more than that you will be disappointed.

This is precisely what is wrong with the "developer" mindset! But I do appreciate you guys. That's why I indicated that there should be a facilitator whose job is to manage developers into putting forward a useful and usable app, not just a fanciful, incomplete and perpetual project. I understand that KDE is itself a fanciful perpetual ongoing project. Of course that is not what I am referring too. In much the same way, the development of the automobile is a perpetually ongoing project, but the public occasionally demands a release product! They do not want to wait for too long simply because some developer in the process has a better idea for the steering wheel!

Don't misunderstand we need perpetual projects just as we need dreamers who tinker with them. I'm just stating that we also need someone to push the dreamers to also be responsible 'do-ers.' And if the dreamer doesn't want to be a do-er, that's ok... keep dreaming... But give your work to another who is willing to codify it into something useful to the kde community as a whole. The only other solution to the problems I have laid out is for someone else to get fed up with waiting and start coding from scratch to create something useful. That certainly is not in the spirit of the kde project, now is it?

Another example that I cited above regarding kpackagekit. One developer says he is waiting for a modules inclusion while the feature plan in the same document clearly indicates that the module already has been included. So one developer is held up by another's schedule. The aforementioned developer appears to have been caught daydreaming or napping! A better manager of the process in it's entirety would have caught the two inconsistencies and managed the information flow to release a quality controlled product.

mshelby wrote:Anyway, the point is that KDE needs to have a better hierarchical structure of development accountability.

Unfortunately, getting a good hierarchical structure in an Open Source project is extremely difficult. We could use a good project manager to keep track of stuff, but actually getting developers to work on stuff that doesn't interest them isn't going to happen. It's just the nature of things. Either a good hierarchical structure arises spontaneously, or it doesn't. It's not something you can force.

google01103 wrote:running 4.3 and I'm not seeing a printer config applet, is it in trunk?

I have it in FreeBSD. It is part of kdeutils-4.2.4, so it is definitely there. I assume you're building from source, so check out the cmake messages about optional components. You may be missing something like PyKDE.

mshelby wrote:That being said, the fault really is upon the lead developers. If John Layt, who I'm sure is a perfectly nice gentleman and competent programmer, can only find the time to make infrequent commits then he probably should not be the lead developer on the project.

One problem is that in a project with only one developer, that developer implicitly is the lead developer.

mshelby wrote:If kdeprint is a core system function of the kdeutils metapackage...

I am not sure if there are different importance levels for applications in a module such as kdeutils.

mshelby wrote:...then the lead developer over kdeutils should have been actively recruiting someone to step up and take over the reins of leadership.

Friedrich Kossebau is regularily blogging about applications in need of new maintainers, usually quite successful.
Of course taking over a project one hasn't worked on yet is quite a challenge, most new developer prefer to participate in a project someone with experience is working on as well.

Unfortunately some areas have more difficulties attracting new developers. For example KDE PIM has had no or little luck in getting fresh blood, only recent developments like Akonadi are starting to change that.

Cheers,
_

I don't know anything about the developer culture in kde. But I do know that I've been a Linux Sysadmin for over a decade and I can't figure out how to put a simple new application icon on my kde4 desktop.

Whatever bells and whistles these guys keep creating are overlooking that fact that basic functionality doesn't exist.

I don't impress girls with my desktop. I use it. I could not give a yellow squirt about how cool it looks when I can't use a GUI to do even the most basic tasks.

Look, I know you guys are working hard on your vision of the future. But nobody outside cares. I work with the most experienced linux sysadmin's on the planet, and nobody uses this desktop and for good reason.

Here is what is needed in a desktop:

Hardware Detection/Configuration/Customization- Wireless, wired, sound, printers, scanners, storage. If you have to go through 5 levels of **** just to disable a screensaver and change your resolution, something is wrong.

Function- the ability to run applications quickly. Don't even get me started.

The rest doesn't matter without those two. If I wanted useless and pretty, I'd buy jewelry.

The thought of kde 3.5.X being deprecated by neglect really makes me sad. Now all I've got to introduce people to is Gnome and OS X. It's too bad.

What's really too bad is that at this time- October 2, 2009. Release 4.3.1 doesn't address, fix, or even acknowledge any of these functionality issues. Functionality. Not- "Does my useless plasmoid work?" No, function. Period.

This is why you dial 911 when you are dying, and not 011-41-OOPS-TRY-AGAIN. I hope that whoever is in charge of this project will do a simple test for me. Stick a random child, teenager, and adult in front of this GUI and tell them to do a simple task. Like create an icon. Maybe even install a game(Ooooo....). How crazy is that.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best but this desktop find me if you can application **** has got to stop. That's it.

Thor

thoreauhd wrote:I don't know anything about the developer culture in kde. But I do know that I've been a Linux Sysadmin for over a decade and I can't figure out how to put a simple new application icon on my kde4 desktop.

Actually there are more than one way to do this. Either use the desktop as it was used before (folderview) or drop one from the menu to the desktop. That's all.

Whatever bells and whistles these guys keep creating are overlooking that fact that basic functionality doesn't exist.

I don't impress girls with my desktop. I use it. I could not give a yellow squirt about how cool it looks when I can't use a GUI to do even the most basic tasks.

Look, I know you guys are working hard on your vision of the future. But nobody outside cares. I work with the most experienced linux sysadmin's on the planet, and nobody uses this desktop and for good reason.

Here is what is needed in a desktop:

Hardware Detection/Configuration/Customization- Wireless, wired, sound, printers, scanners, storage. If you have to go through 5 levels of **** just to disable a screensaver, something is wrong.

I only see 2 levels here. Not sure where you get that 5 level thing...

Function- the ability to run applications quickly. Don't even get me started.

You really should try krunner (ALT+F2), it can't be faster.

The rest doesn't matter without those two. If I wanted useless and pretty, I'd buy jewelry.

The thought of kde 3.5.X being deprecated by neglect really makes me sad. Now all I've got to introduce people to is Gnome and OS X. It's too bad.

What's really too bad is that at this time- October 2, 2009. Release 4.3.1 doesn't address, fix, or even acknowledge any of these functionality issues. Functionality. Not- "Does my useless plasmoid work?" No, function. Period.

This is why you dial 911 when you are dying, and not 011-41-OOPS-TRY-AGAIN. I hope that whoever is in charge of this project will do a simple test for me. Stick a random child, teenager, and adult in front of this GUI and tell them to do a simple task. Like create an icon. Maybe even install a game(Ooooo....). How crazy is that.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best but this desktop find me if you can application **** has got to stop. That's it.

Thor

thoreauhd wrote:I hope that whoever is in charge of this project will do a simple test for me. Stick a random child, teenager, and adult in front of this GUI and tell them to do a simple task. Like create an icon. Maybe even install a game(Ooooo....). How crazy is that.

Actually, I have done that. A 7-year old had no problem in adding what he wanted to the desktop (basically just the icons for his favorite games), and those who were older had no problems with how the package-manager worked.

thoreauhd wrote:I can't figure out how to put a simple new application icon on my kde4 desktop.

How are you attempting to put the icon on the desktop?

There are already multiple ways to do it but as you're obviously trying a different way it might be possible to add that to future releases and thus make it easier for others. =)